Indian doctors are FOUR times more likely to be struck off than those trained in Britain

[Dedworth]

Doctors from India are four times as likely to be struck off the UK medical register than those who are trained in this country, according to new figures.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...truck-off.html

No surprises here

Typical mealy-mouthed words from the handwringing Chief Executive of the GMC. It's always someone elses fault

[joebloggs]

The study emerged after British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (BAPIO) brought a high court action against the GMC claiming it discriminated against overseas doctors who wanted to become GPs, which the judge ruled against.

why are they failing then ? the exam is called the CSA, why do most British doctors pass it first time, something like 90% , while only i think its 40% of IMG;s pass, no one can give an explanation for it i wonder why maybe its down to the examiners subjective opinion

it doesn't mention why they had been struck off, could be nothing to do with their medical skills

[Arthur Little]

... these doctors they're in trouble

The country with the largest number of doctors removed from the UK register is India ...

.................. ... really?

... "well ... ... goodness, gracious me!"

[Dedworth]

Have a look at the names of those due to appear in "Fitness to Practice" cases before the GMC in May here :-

http://www.gmc-uk.org/calendar/

Click on any name at random to see what they are alleged to have been doing - plenty of variety........ sexual misconduct, aggression, failing to inform new employers they're under GMC investigation, obtaining patients phone numbers from records and using for non clinical reasons.

[Doc Alan]

Doctors from overseas provide a vital service by working in fields that UK graduates avoid ( their choice ).


About 80% of UK GPs qualified here, compared to 60% of hospital doctors.


There is an A & E crisis in the UK :-


1. Increased demand by patients who are attending with conditions which are neither accidents or emergencies, but can’t / won’t seek treatment elsewhere ( family doctors, dentists, walk in clinics, pharmacies, self-help ).


2. Staff shortages – most work could be done by more junior doctors and nurses, rather than consultants.


3. Alcohol. Many patients in A & E, especially on Friday and Saturday nights are there because they’ve drank too much. They need to be supported and monitored, but most don’t need the resources of a casualty doctor, A & E cubicle, or ward bed.


4. “Bed-blocking “ patients on wards. They don’t require to be in a hospital ward, but can’t be discharged because of social care problems. The minority of patients in A & E who need to be admitted have to wait too long for a bed to become available.



Of course “ routine competency tests “ should not be waived in this country’s desperation to recruit doctors from India ( or anywhere else ) to prevent A & E units from closing.


The planned GMC review of how foreign doctors’ knowledge is assessed may also help. All overseas medical qualifications should meet the same standards as those in the UK. It’s the GMC’s responsibility to make sure they do.


The fact that doctors trained in India are more likely to be struck off partly reflects the sheer number ( over 25,000 ) on the GMC Register. A glance at the reasons for disciplinary procedures also shows that they appear to be valid and not unduly harsh.


The Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service / MPTS runs hearings for doctors whose fitness to practise is called into question. It’s accountable to Parliament and the GMC ( which sets the standards ). The 300 or so panellists are a mix of medical and non-medical people, appointed through open competition. Most of their hearings are held in public. The MPTS is independent in its decision making and the panellists - identifiable to the public - must give reasons for their decisions.



Some would view an ideal NHS as having ONLY UK medical graduates. That way standards could be tightly controlled. There are enough applicants from the UK for UK medical schools. But our graduates don’t want ( and can’t be forced ) to enter unpopular specialties in undesirable areas. At present these essential posts are filled by foreign graduates.


“ Scrutiny of doctors trained abroad “ is not just a function of the GMC ; it’s up to local appointment committees ; and the UK can’t afford to do without the third of its doctors who are foreign any time soon. Without them services like A & E could not survive.

[Dedworth]

I agree Doc greater scrutiny is required within all aspects of the NHS and professional bodies to prevent what appears to be a high ratio of Unfit to Practice Doctors being recruited in the first place. I do wonder if other countries hiring from overseas experience a similarly high proportion of bad apples - eg Australia :-

The national health regulator isn't acting quickly enough against a doctor accused of a string of serious surgical errors, Queensland's health minister says.

A urologist has been stood down from Rockhampton Hospital while he is being investigated for allegedly botching four operations.

He's accused of misdiagnosing a twisted testicle causing it to ultimately be removed, taking out a patient's right kidney instead of the diseased left one, nicking another's artery and incorrectly positioning a stent.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/na...ctor-concerns/

[Arthur Little]

C'mon, to be fair ... I think you'll find the "bad apples" you refer to
are relatively few and far between in the medical profession generally - regardless of ethnic origins - otherwise ... ... why on earth would they spend years training to be a doctor in the first place?

[joebloggs]

A urologist has been stood down from Rockhampton Hospital while he is being investigated for allegedly botching four operations.

He's accused of misdiagnosing a twisted testicle causing it to ultimately be removed, taking out a patient's right kidney instead of the diseased left one, nicking another's artery and incorrectly positioning a stent.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/na...ctor-concerns/

Dedworth , an English consultant my misses worked under, he removed the testicle of a young guy because he believed it to be cancerous. From what I remember, you can only be certain once a biopsy had been carried out. When they found out it wasn't, the young guy complained, the consultant told him, 99% of the time he right. Yes, the guy has lost a testicle but if they didn't remove it, it could have cost him his life

[Dedworth]

Arthur & Joe - you are going off track here. The thrust of this thread is the fact that Indian trained doctors are four times more likely to be struck off than the UK trained variety.

Have you opened this http://www.gmc-uk.org/calendar/ and clicked on the names ? There seems to be a large number of "bad apples" up before the beak

[Dedworth]

MAIDSTONE, KENT A doctor who forged prescriptions to sell abroad faces being struck off the medical register.

See more at: http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/online_arch....zaGzYgeU.dpuf

[andy222]

Arthur & Joe - you are going off track here. The thrust of this thread is the fact that Indian trained doctors are four times more likely to be struck off than the UK trained variety.

Have you opened this http://www.gmc-uk.org/calendar/ and clicked on the names ? There seems to be a large number of "bad apples" up before the beak

Maybe because there are four times as many Indian/Pakistani doctors than there is English doctors.

[Dedworth]

[joebloggs]

dedworth, how do you know these are not British citizens ? how do you know they didn't go to med school here? how do you know they didn't get trained here ?

your judging people by their name

some of those listed are in trouble not because of their medical skills but for other reasons

[Dedworth]

dedworth, how do you know these are not British citizens ? how do you know they didn't go to med school here? how do you know they didn't get trained here ?

your judging people by their name

some of those listed are in trouble not because of their medical skills but for other reasons

err I'm going by the original GMC figures stated in post # 1.

Wring your hands and draw your own conclusions from the sub continent names on the "charge sheet" in post # 4 but it will all come out in the wash when the struck off reports are published stating where they trained and "qualified".

The "trouble" they're in might not be medical skills related but it makes them unfit to practice in the "envy of the world NHS" - can we have your take on this debauched deviant, Indian trained NHS GP equipped with a watch video camera filming his assaults on undraped female patients ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-patients.html

[joebloggs]

where they trained and "qualified".

so dedworth, how do you classify my misses, degree from the phils, 6 months SHO job in the UK, 2yrs foundation training - that's the SAME TRAINING THAT THOSE WHO DID THEIR MEDICAL DEGREE IN THE UK WOULD HAVE TO DO, and shes doing the same GP training as those who did their medical degree in the UK and their 2yrs foundation training,

would she pass as one trained in Britain or not

[Dedworth]

so dedworth, how do you classify my misses, degree from the phils, 6 months SHO job in the UK, 2yrs foundation training - that's the SAME TRAINING THAT THOSE WHO DID THEIR MEDICAL DEGREE IN THE UK WOULD HAVE TO DO, and shes doing the same GP training as those who did their medical degree in the UK and their 2yrs foundation training,

would she pass as one trained in Britain or not

Can you stop moving off topic Joe - TBH I'm tired of your repeated dragging of your Mrs into any thread about overseas trained Docs and I'm not concerned whether she trained in Phils, UK or on the Moon - watch my lips INDIAN TRAINED DOCS 4 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE STRUCK OFF THAN THE UK VARIETY

I'm waiting for your response on my post #14 which has nothing whatsoever to do with your wife

[Doc Alan]

The figures DO refer to the country where doctors trained as students and obtained their primary ( first ) medical qualification. ALL training thereafter, which MUST be continued throughout their career, is postgraduate.


1 in 1000 UK trained doctors and 1 in 250 India trained doctors are struck off. High standards are essential WHEREVER a doctor qualified and continues to work.


While hard to put a precise cost on training - for an individual and everyone else involved - it’s obviously important to minimise the likelihood of being struck off ! This is done by regular appraisals and revalidation - making sure, as far as possible, that doctors keep high standards and continue to learn. That should apply unconditionally.


The GMC – NOT just a quango of doctors - can’t alone be responsible for implementing the standards it sets. That’s up to local appointment committees – which include university and specialty representatives – then everyone involved in postgraduate training, and patient representatives.


As explained in #5, the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service / MPTS runs hearings for doctors whose fitness to practise is called into question. It is also NOT a medical quango ! The panellists are a mix of medical and non-medical people, appointed through open competition. Most of their hearings are held in public. The MPTS is INDEPENDENT in its decision making and the panellists - identifiable to the public - must give reasons for their decisions.



We ALL have a vested interest in health matters and rightly expect high standards from health workers who we pay (mostly indirectly in the UK ; directly and by insurance in the Philippines ). The vast majority DO reach these standards.


Ensuring the minority who don’t are either corrected before they qualify, or afterwards if their standards fall below acceptable levels, should apply without exception.

[joebloggs]

Can you stop moving off topic Joe - TBH I'm tired of your repeated dragging of your Mrs into any thread about overseas trained Docs and I'm not concerned whether she trained in Phils, UK or on the Moon - watch my lips INDIAN TRAINED DOCS 4 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE STRUCK OFF THAN THE UK VARIETY

I'm waiting for your response on my post #14 which has nothing whatsoever to do with your wife

how do you know dedworth this is not the reason ..

BAPIO said the new figures showed that Indian doctors are discriminated against at the GMC.

Dr Ramesh Mehta, president of BAPIO, said “Over the years we have repeatedly pointed out to the GMC that foreign doctors are treated harshly in disciplinary procedures; more referrals come from the management than from the public, with fewer local doctors being referred to the GMC who also get off lightly when caught.

“The NHS and the policymakers need to make up their minds since it is ironic that on the one hand Indian doctors are being criticised and on the other hand they are being courted”.

dedworth this is a fact

RCGP figures for 2010-11indicate that the failure rate for IMGs taking the CSA component of the MRCGP is at 63.2%, compared with 9.4% of UK graduates. The President of BAPIO, Dr Ramesh Mehta said “While patient safety is of utmost importance toBAPIO and the standards of examination must be maintained; the huge differential between the pass rates is unjustified while all the trainees have gone through the same 3 year training”


There was afurore when Royal College of General Practioners admitted that ethnic-minority candidates were continuing to perform ‘differently’ to other candidates after the release of RCGP commissioned review of possible racial and sex biases in the exam in 2010.

http://www.bapio.co.uk/justice-for-gp-trainees


its time BAPIO took this to court and to find out if IMG's have been discriminated and maybe IMG's are also treated 'differently' to British doctors who face being struck off.

[grahamw48]

These people are being recruited from countries where corruption, lying and cheating are the norm throughout all sectors of society. No rocket science involved.

[andy222]

The main question should be: Why did we recruit so many doctors from abroad?

[Dedworth]

its time BAPIO took this to court and to find out if IMG's have been discriminated and maybe IMG's are also treated 'differently' to British doctors who face being struck off.

Well why don't they ?

They've got about as much credibility as you Joe standing on here defending these crooks, perverts and inept "doctors"

[joebloggs]

Well why don't they ?

They've got about as much credibility as you Joe standing on here defending these crooks, perverts and inept "doctors"

and what credibility do you have judging people from their surname

1/250 Indian doctors had been struck off, what's that dedworth, err 0.4% , why don't you praise the 99.6% who haven't been struck off focusing on 0.4%

1/350 Pakistani doctors what's that .. err 0.28% again what about the 99.72% that haven't

oh and don't forget the British docs, well they might not be British, they did their degree here, so they could be from any country, 1/1000 is struck off. that's what .01%, and again 99.99% haven't

what common here 99%+ haven't been struck off

[Dedworth]

How many times do I have to repeat it - Indian trained Doctors are 4 times more likely to be struck off than UK trained one's. Your bizarre defence of these rogues has included the Dr Mrs Joe angle, discrimination and now percentages.

[SimonH]

and what credibility do you have judging people from their surname

1/250 Indian doctors had been struck off, what's that dedworth, err 0.4% , why don't you praise the 99.6% who haven't been struck off focusing on 0.4%

1/350 Pakistani doctors what's that .. err 0.28% again what about the 99.72% that haven't

oh and don't forget the British docs, well they might not be British, they did their degree here, so they could be from any country, 1/1000 is struck off. that's what .01%, and again 99.99% haven't

what common here 99%+ haven't been struck off

What's common here to paraphrase is that 0.4% is 4X 0.1%

Hence the thread title

[joebloggs]

How many times do I have to repeat it - Indian trained Doctors are 4 times more likely to be struck off than UK trained one's. Your bizarre defence of these rogues has included the Dr Mrs Joe angle, discrimination and now percentages.

and how many times dedworth do i have to tell you all doctors are not treated equally

4 * what's the difference here 0.4% to 0.01%

at least 99.6% of doctors have not been struck off

[joebloggs]

I've not found 2 cases you can compare at the mo but look here ..

I'm assuming these are British Doctors who received warnings.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...-after-6512189
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/8486936.stm

and an Indian doctor who was struck off,

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/110...tions/?ref=mry


and the GMC don't get it right all the time

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-assault.html

[Dedworth]

From the May calendar post # 4

Name: Dr Ali MAO-AWEYS
GMC Reference Number: 6164883

Area of practice: Birmingham

The Panel will inquire into the allegation that in April 2012 Dr Mao-Aweys had meetings and a telephone conversation during which it is alleged that Dr Mao-Aweys offered to assist in arranging and facilitating an operation within the United Kingdom to effect the genital mutilation of a female child or children, knowing that such an operation was illegal within the United Kingdom. Additionally, it is alleged that Dr Mao-Aweys gave advice and offered to provide medication to facilitate such an operation outside the United Kingdom in order to assist with the avoidance of United Kingdom legislation banning such a practice.

[joebloggs]

From the May calendar post # 4

Name: Dr Ali MAO-AWEYS
GMC Reference Number: 6164883

Area of practice: Birmingham

The Panel will inquire into the allegation that in April 2012 Dr Mao-Aweys had meetings and a telephone conversation during which it is alleged that Dr Mao-Aweys offered to assist in arranging and facilitating an operation within the United Kingdom to effect the genital mutilation of a female child or children, knowing that such an operation was illegal within the United Kingdom. Additionally, it is alleged that Dr Mao-Aweys gave advice and offered to provide medication to facilitate such an operation outside the United Kingdom in order to assist with the avoidance of United Kingdom legislation banning such a practice.

not wishing to on your fire dedworth, this doctor took his degree in Germany

[joebloggs]

Dr James Abiodun OLUWOLE
From : 28 April 2014 To : 02 May 2014


Category : Fitness to Practise Hearings


Info :
Planned dates: 28 April – 2 May 2014
St James’s Buildings, 79 Oxford Street, Manchester, M1 6FQ

The Fitness to Practise Panel will meet at St James’s Buildings, 79 Oxford Street, Manchester, M1 6FQ to consider a new case of impairment by reason of misconduct.

Name: Dr James Abiodun OLUWOLE
GMC Reference Number: 0599629

Area of practice: South West England

The Panel will inquire into the allegation that in January 2013, Dr Oluwole wrote two private prescriptions for a patient. It is alleged that his prescribing was excessive and dangerous.

The above reflects the allegation as it stands at the start of the hearing. The allegation may be amended as the hearing proceeds and when findings of fact are made by the Panel. If you require up to date information regarding the allegation throughout the course of the hearing, please contact the MPTS at pressoffice@mpts-uk.org.

In accordance with Rule 41(2) of the General Medical Council (Fitness to Practise) Rules 2004, the Panel may decide to exclude the public from the proceedings or any part of the proceedings, where they consider that the circumstances of the case outweigh the public interest in holding the hearing in public.

this guy got his medical degree from the University of London in 1964 , you just cant judge people by their name dedworth

[joebloggs]

Dr Carl CLINTON
From : 01 May 2014 To : 02 May 2014


Category : Fitness to Practise Hearings


Info :
Planned dates: 1 to 2 May 2014
St James’s Buildings, 79 Oxford Street, Manchester, M1 6FQ

The Fitness to Practise Panel will reconvene at St James’s Buildings, 79 Oxford Street, Manchester, M1 6FQ to consider a new case of impairment by reason of misconduct.

Name: Dr Carl CLINTON
GMC Reference Number: 3166767

Area of practice: Jersey

another one from the first few names on the calendar, he took his degree at the University of Sheffield so many people here took their degrees at British or European Uni's