Random visa checks at Tube station in ‘racist van’ area

[Janedan0913]

For me, there's. no problem if I will be stopped and check my IDs. If someone is not hiding anything then there is no way to get mad on what they are doing. I prefer them doing their job outside rather than staying in the office and just looking at all the files of the asylum seekers and other visa applicants.

[lordna]

Let me put it another way...
If a police or immigration officer gives a valid reason ie he/she can demonstrate that an immigration or other offence is being commited, then i have no objection to identifying myself. That doesnt mean i want to be forced to carry ID with me.
If everyone carried ID what a wonderful target for theft as once you lose any ID (driving licence, passport, birth certificate or BRP card) its not easy to get it back or prove who you are particularly when someone else is proving they are you with your documents. This actually happened to my father and i can assure you its not funny.
Les i dont think carrying ID has anything to do with racism either...but what could be considered racist is identifying people by the colour of their skin and stopping them on that basis only , then asking if they can produce ID. Not only is that racist, it also doesnt comply with the UKBA operations enforcement manual. Even if some believe the manual needs updating (not my opinion) it is the current set of rules Immigration officers should be working to.
Graham i am sorry you have decided to "duck out" of the discussion when i mentioned previous behaviour in Nazi Germany and the fact that Jews were forced to wear stars, but i do see a dangerous parrallel here. I take your reason of not wanting to comment as that you have no counter argument to that point?
Dedworth your post highlighting another comment i made has been included here totally out of context and has nothing to do with these randonm visa checks or the carrying of ID. It did however have a lot to do with the point that one should not jump to conclusions when you see a photo of what people do for a living or why they are here. Infact your opinion of the people concerned was probably correct as i might of even said at a later point but you have chosen NOT to mention this but prefer to perhaps ridicule any opinion other than yours as being invalid. I form my opinions on what i observe and sometimes from what others may write here...and may even change my opinions based on that.
We have the usual tirade about only those with something to hide will object to identity cards. We could make the same argument about giving the police unrestricted access to any part of your life. If you have nothing to hide, you won't object to the police stopping you and searching you, or asking to be let into your house at any time in the day? I certainly would!
The present government were quick to discard the National identity database and scheme thank goodness. What if such a scheme was extended to include a record of your DNA, and include access to all other databases holding details about you? Perhaps the present governments intention on how this information could be used is legitimate but who knows how this could be used by future governments? Perhaps they would eventually dispense with a card and have us all "chipped" like animals by placing such a device just under the skin.
At the moment all non EEC immigrants legally here have ID cards AND all people from other EEC countries HAVE to carry ID in Europe. That only leaves us British and any illegal immigrants not necessarily carrying ID. I think its more likely that those here illegally will be attempting either to forge or steal the ID of others and that really is my main fear of making it compulsory to produce or carry ID.

[raynaputi]

Well if you're a driver, you need to have your driving license with you all the time right? You shouldn't drive if you don't bring your driving license. Also, don't BRP cards and driving licenses have digital photos? They even get your fingerprints when you apply for a BRP card. I'm sure authorities can determine if a passport is tampered or fake. I think if my IDs are stolen, it would just indicate that I'm too careless with my things for that to happen. Then the first thing I must do after the theft is to inform the authorities about it to prevent identity theft. This has always been told/written in the forms and websites of UKBA, DVLA, etc. You can't let days/weeks/months/years pass by without informing the authorities about the theft.

And if someone else is using my identifications, I would insist for a fingerprint scan if worse comes to worst because no one can have the same fingerprint as yours, unless the thief is like a James Bond character who can make a copy of your fingerprint and such. Birth certificates, even though it's a clear identification of where you were born and your nationality, because it doesn't contain your photo (whether past/present photo) and/or fingerprints, it can just be considered as secondary identification. I know everything is possible but you sure would have a lot of ways in proving who you are if your identity would be stolen (dental and medical records, etc.).

I think these checks that are introduced now are actually good because the authorities are doing something that actually would show results in getting these illegal immigrants out of the country, at least knowing exactly where & who they are. I can't get it when people complain how many illegals are living in the country and yet when an effective way of getting these illegals removed from the country are introduced, the racist card is always shown.

Anyway, I'm an immigrant in this country and I don't find anything offensive with all these checks that are happening now. Check all my IDs and papers all the time they want, I won't be bothered. As long as they won't be mean to me after they found out I'm legally here, then I won't find it being racist. I was asking Keith when I got here, how come the authorities haven't done some checking with the immigrants coming here. I think it's time they do this. We all know immigration of this country has failed so badly and this is one thing the authorities can show that they are doing their bits to correct some things, one step at a time.

[grahamw48]

Rayna...respect.

[les_taxi]

Well said Rayna and thanks for rep

[raynaputi]

Thanks Graham and Les. It's just time for the authorities to finally do something with illegal immigrants. And these checks are just the tip of the iceberg really. It's us who are doing everything legally that are suffering because of them right? I too can't take this so much trouble we experience now because they are targeting the wrong people. Deal with the illegals too and not just us legal immigrants.

I have registered to an NHS dentist here in Denbigh and on Monday, I finally have an appointment. Guess what I ask them before confirming my appointment, "Do I have to bring my IDs and some papers (proof of address)?". The lady on the other line said I don't have to, but still, I would bring it to be safe and in case they ask for any proof of whatever. As an immigrant, I have to do my part to prevent any troubles.

[Pete/London]

Well said Rayna

Listening to radio phone ins a lot of other immigrants to this country also agree with the steps being taken..

[Iani]

Ahhh Godwins law

As for anyone (not on here) somehow suggesting this is raaaacist, oh get a grip. As this is Britain, it's an inescapable fact that any illegal immigrants are very unlikely to be white grannies.

Anyway, no doubt the politicians will keep continuing to fiddle away whilst......well Rome isn't burning yet but don't be complacent.

[Arthur Little]

Personally ... I don't see any problem(s) in the issue of 'National Identity Cards' right across the board. So long as they HAVEN'T committed a crime, then people have nothing to fear. ... let's face it ... ... each and every driver MUST, by law, carry his/her Driving Licence, and (as has already been pointed out) is expected to be able to produce this document whenever requested by the police and/or other legalised authorities.

[grahamw48]

Try opening a bank account without any ID...to give them some of YOUR money.

[lordna]

Personally ... I don't see any problem(s) in the issue of 'National Identity Cards' right across the board. So long as they HAVEN'T committed a crime, then people have nothing to fear. ... let's face it ... ... each and every driver MUST, by law, carry his/her Driving Licence, and (as has already been pointed out) is expected to be able to produce this document whenever requested by the police and/or other legalised authorities.

Arthur i dont believe its anything different in Scotland but here if you are driving a car, you must HAVE a full or provisional license. You do NOT have to carry it with you when driving but if you don't MUST produce it at a police station within 7 days.

Thats very different to saying you MUST carry it all times. Correction also to theprevious post by Rayna.

[lordna]

Some opinions on here seems to favour the issue of National Identity Cards, which i find suprising.
I am no fan of our current coalition government but I do agree with these extracts from a speech given by Nick Clegg on Freedom in the UK in 2010.

This morning I want to talk about freedom.

For too long new laws and regulations have taken away people’s freedoms, interfered in everyday life, and made it difficult for businesses to get by.
The state has crept further and further into people’s homes, the places they work, their private lives.
That intrusion is wrong; it’s illiberal; it’s disempowering and it’s going to change.

First, civil liberties
One of the Coalition’s immediate acts was to halt ID cards.
Plans are underway to restrict the storage of innocent people’s DNA; to properly regulate CCTV; to restore the right to non-violent protest; to protect trial by jury.

Our ambition is to create a society where no law-abiding individual ever feels intimidated by the state, just for going about their day-to-day business.
Where people aren’t cast under suspicion simply because of who they are, or where they’re from

But that means redoubling our efforts to restore the great British traditions of freedom and fairness.
The culture of snooping and mistrust has become so ingrained that we must tackle it with renewed vigour.
Don’t accept it.
If you’re sick of the state prying into your private affairs, tell us.
If you feel harassed when you haven’t done anything wrong, tell us
If there are ways that we can better protect your dignity, tell us
And tell us what you want us to do about it too.

The purpose of the law is to protect and empower citizens.
That is the only time the state ever has the right to restrict your behaviour.

This government is determined to give people back their freedom.
But we cannot do it without you.
So be demanding about your liberty, be insistent about your rights..

[andy222]

And you dont think they will be able to fake ID cards? How many Ali's and Khans are there in this country? They do the same with their driving licenses.

[lordna]

Well if you're a driver, you need to have your driving license with you all the time right? You shouldn't drive if you don't bring your driving license. Also, don't BRP cards and driving licenses have digital photos? They even get your fingerprints when you apply for a BRP card. I'm sure authorities can determine if a passport is tampered or fake. I think if my IDs are stolen, it would just indicate that I'm too careless with my things for that to happen. Then the first thing I must do after the theft is to inform the authorities about it to prevent identity theft. This has always been told/written in the forms and websites of UKBA, DVLA, etc. You can't let days/weeks/months/years pass by without informing the authorities about the theft.

And if someone else is using my identifications, I would insist for a fingerprint scan if worse comes to worst because no one can have the same fingerprint as yours, unless the thief is like a James Bond character who can make a copy of your fingerprint and such. Birth certificates, even though it's a clear identification of where you were born and your nationality, because it doesn't contain your photo (whether past/present photo) and/or fingerprints, it can just be considered as secondary identification. I know everything is possible but you sure would have a lot of ways in proving who you are if your identity would be stolen (dental and medical records, etc.).

I think these checks that are introduced now are actually good because the authorities are doing something that actually would show results in getting these illegal immigrants out of the country, at least knowing exactly where & who they are. I can't get it when people complain how many illegals are living in the country and yet when an effective way of getting these illegals removed from the country are introduced, the racist card is always shown.

Anyway, I'm an immigrant in this country and I don't find anything offensive with all these checks that are happening now. Check all my IDs and papers all the time they want, I won't be bothered. As long as they won't be mean to me after they found out I'm legally here, then I won't find it being racist. I was asking Keith when I got here, how come the authorities haven't done some checking with the immigrants coming here. I think it's time they do this. We all know immigration of this country has failed so badly and this is one thing the authorities can show that they are doing their bits to correct some things, one step at a time.

1). Please see response to Arthurs post...you do NOT need to carry your driving licence...a popular misconception.
2). As a law abiding driver and having been at the same addresss for numerous years i do NOT have a photo on my driving licence. I also have no desire to change it when they now charge extra to issue a photocard type licence. My licence is valid and thats all that is required. The licence issued to me is not a convenient size that one would want to carry it all times.
3). Identity theft can and does often happen without you being aware and it can be some weeks before you discover it has happened. In that scenario it becomes increasingly difficult to recover from it which really was the sort of situation i was reffering to. Of course you are correct that on discovering the theft of any important documents you should notify the appropriate authorities and the police as soon as possible.
4) forgery of documents is now becoming the interest of organised crime and consequently forgeries of important documents are becoming more and more difficult to detect.
5) Yes, fingerprints would prove your identity but most law abiding UK citizens have NEVER had fingerprints taken. Having them taken as a matter of routine would be seen by many as an erosian of our civil liberties and contrary to the speech (posted above) by Nick Clegg.
6) you say you dont mind authorities asking for your ID (As long as they are Nice to you)....but i think its exactly that point...in this case the Immigration Officers were found to be NOT being nice and infact demanding non white people produce ID.
7) Failure of immigration in this country is down to successive governments allowing EEC member countries people having the right to seek work here and very little to do with Non EEC country people being here. It also has to do with inadequate border controls and the fact that no checks are made on those leaving the UK. How can you control what you can't even count?

[lordna]

Try opening a bank account without any ID...to give them some of YOUR money.

You're 100% correct that trying to open a bank account without ID is an impossibility.

However if your a criminal and have the desire to open an account then you will find ways to obtain fraudulent ID. FACT Its very easy to obtain a registered copy of ANY birth certificate or Marriage certificate for the sum of just £9.50 i believe. This is a VERY good starting point to setting up ID in another name.

Using this as a starting point its probably very easy to obtain other id if you wanted to.

[Janedan0913]

Well if you're a driver, you need to have your driving license with you all the time right? You shouldn't drive if you don't bring your driving license. Also, don't BRP cards and driving licenses have digital photos? They even get your fingerprints when you apply for a BRP card. I'm sure authorities can determine if a passport is tampered or fake. I think if my IDs are stolen, it would just indicate that I'm too careless with my things for that to happen. Then the first thing I must do after the theft is to inform the authorities about it to prevent identity theft. This has always been told/written in the forms and websites of UKBA, DVLA, etc. You can't let days/weeks/months/years pass by without informing the authorities about the theft.

And if someone else is using my identifications, I would insist for a fingerprint scan if worse comes to worst because no one can have the same fingerprint as yours, unless the thief is like a James Bond character who can make a copy of your fingerprint and such. Birth certificates, even though it's a clear identification of where you were born and your nationality, because it doesn't contain your photo (whether past/present photo) and/or fingerprints, it can just be considered as secondary identification. I know everything is possible but you sure would have a lot of ways in proving who you are if your identity would be stolen (dental and medical records, etc.).

I think these checks that are introduced now are actually good because the authorities are doing something that actually would show results in getting these illegal immigrants out of the country, at least knowing exactly where & who they are. I can't get it when people complain how many illegals are living in the country and yet when an effective way of getting these illegals removed from the country are introduced, the racist card is always shown.

Anyway, I'm an immigrant in this country and I don't find anything offensive with all these checks that are happening now. Check all my IDs and papers all the time they want, I won't be bothered. As long as they won't be mean to me after they found out I'm legally here, then I won't find it being racist. I was asking Keith when I got here, how come the authorities haven't done some checking with the immigrants coming here. I think it's time they do this. We all know immigration of this country has failed so badly and this is one thing the authorities can show that they are doing their bits to correct some things, one step at a time.

[andy222]

Freedom for people who are legal here YES. I agree. The illegals boot them out. Asylum seekers are another lot they should clamp down on. Eg a Iraqi moved in by us has 8 kids and obviously doesnt work he is better off than me and a few on here and we have to work. . If this happened on our estate 30 years ago his feet wouldnt have touched the ground.. Mind you there is time yet. .

[andy222]

Anyway, I'm an immigrant in this country and I don't find anything offensive with all these checks that are happening now. Check all my IDs and papers all the time they want, I won't be bothered. As long as they won't be mean to me after they found out I'm legally here, then I won't find it being racist. I was asking Keith when I got here, how come the authorities haven't done some checking with the immigrants coming here. I think it's time they do this. We all know immigration of this country has failed so badly and this is one thing the authorities can show that they are doing their bits to correct some things, one step at a time.

The difference is you're married to a true brit and you are legal.

[Arthur Little]

Arthur i dont believe its anything different in Scotland but here if you are driving a car, you must HAVE a full or provisional license. You do NOT have to carry it with you when driving but if you don't MUST produce it at a police station within 7 days.

Oh well ... ... I'm NOT a driver, so I stand corrected. But I still believe ID cards wouldn't be such a bad idea, nonetheless.

[raynaputi]

6) you say you dont mind authorities asking for your ID (As long as they are Nice to you)....but i think its exactly that point...in this case the Immigration Officers were found to be NOT being nice and infact demanding non white people produce ID.

What I said was after they've checked that I'm a legal immigrant here, and they would be mean to me even if they have my proof, then that would be racist. I don't think asking for some identification is racist. This overreaction about just being asked for identification of someone's legality in this country is absurd, whether they were asked because they look Asian and not white. I've seen a Brazilian lady being interviewed about the check that happened. She said that the immigration officers just asked the people who got out of the coach for some IDs to check if they are legal here. She didn't find it offensive and said it's not a problem. I can't see what's offensive about it either.

I can't believe there are people here who complained about the troubles bringing their wives/partner in the UK are now protecting these illegals and saying what's happening is racist when they are only asked to prove they have the right to stay here. I would rather be asked by these officials instead of them not doing such checks. I don't know, it's so laughable really. The whole country is a soft touch when it comes to these illegals to be frank. They want them out but can't even approve the checks that should be made years ago. At least there are still some here in the forum who talk sense.

[lordna]

What I said was after they've checked that I'm a legal immigrant here, and they would be mean to me even if they have my proof, then that would be racist. I don't think asking for some identification is racist. This overreaction about just being asked for identification of someone's legality in this country is absurd, whether they were asked because they look Asian and not white. I've seen a Brazilian lady being interviewed about the check that happened. She said that the immigration officers just asked the people who got out of the coach for some IDs to check if they are legal here. She didn't find it offensive and said it's not a problem. I can't see what's offensive about it either.

I can't believe there are people here who complained about the troubles bringing their wives/partner in the UK are now protecting these illegals and saying what's happening is racist when they are only asked to prove they have the right to stay here. I would rather be asked by these officials instead of them not doing such checks. I don't know, it's so laughable really. The whole country is a soft touch when it comes to these illegals to be frank. They want them out but can't even approve the checks that should be made years ago. At least there are still some here in the forum who talk sense.

I didn't say asking for ID was racist...although asking for ID without having the Immigration officer having first explaine his reasons for stopping you and that he has some form of evidence that you may be here illegally IS contrary to the UKBA manual(already listed earlier) rules that they should be following. I did say that selecting people on the basis of their colour was Racist and also contrary to the UKBA rules. If the person concerned didn't find it offensive then fine but some did and their complaints are justified. Lets not forget the vast majority of people concerned here were NOT illegally in the country and as British citizens of whatever colour ARE entitled to be treated with respect and in the words of Nick Clegg where no law-abiding individual ever feels intimidated by the state, just for going about their day-to-day business.
Where people aren’t cast under suspicion simply because of who they are, or where they’re from
Your misinformed if you think i am protecting illegal immigrants because UKBA are NOT following their own rulebook. I am however concerned for the majority who are legal and deserve to be treated corerctly despite the small number that clearly are not and deserve to be politely and efficiently removed from our shores.

[grahamw48]

You're 100% correct that trying to open a bank account without ID is an impossibility.

However if your a criminal and have the desire to open an account then you will find ways to obtain fraudulent ID. FACT Its very easy to obtain a registered copy of ANY birth certificate or Marriage certificate for the sum of just £9.50 i believe. This is a VERY good starting point to setting up ID in another name.

Using this as a starting point its probably very easy to obtain other id if you wanted to.

My friend, I am fully aware of the ease with which crooks can carry out fraudulent activities, just as it is equally easy for a criminal to wrap a banana in a paper bag and pull off a successfull bank robbery.

However, WHY do people like you have to drag into any debate the EXTREME to try to make your point ?

There are thousands of people driving around without car insurance or driving licences too...even more without lights on their bikes.

So, do you want us to abandon law and order, rules and regulations so that a tiny minority of whining handwringers can correct all the petty injustices they have time on their hands to get ulcers over...instead minding their own bloody business ?

This society is (or WAS) run for the GREATER GOOD.

[lordna]

My friend, I am fully aware of the ease with which crooks can carry out fraudulent activities, just as it is equally easy for a criminal to wrap a banana in a paper bag and pull off a successfull bank robbery.

However, WHY do people like you have to drag into any debate the EXTREME to try to make your point ?

There are thousands of people driving around without car insurance or driving licences too...even more without lights on their bikes.

So, do you want us to abandon law and order, rules and regulations so that a tiny minority of whining handwringers can correct all the petty injustices they have time on their hands get ulcers over...instead minding their own bloody business ?

This society is (or WAS) run for the GREATER GOOD.

OK Hands up! i suppose it is EXTREME Graham. You being British you are probably fully aware of how easily false identity can be obtained BUT i was just trying to point out to some on here who may not be aware that its so easily possible and at low cost.

I really DO NOT want to "abandon law and order, rules and regulations", infact part of what i am trying to argue is that Immigration officers adhere to "law and order, rules and regulations" for the "GREATER GOOD", in this case the vast majority stopped by them who were clearly NOT illegal immigrants and possibly mostly already British citizens. If the Immigration officers were following their own rules then it would have been for the greater good and probably not even reported in the media in the first place.

[Dedworth]

My friend, I am fully aware of the ease with which crooks can carry out fraudulent activities, just as it is equally easy for a criminal to wrap a banana in a paper bag and pull off a successfull bank robbery.

However, WHY do people like you have to drag into any debate the EXTREME to try to make your point ?

There are thousands of people driving around without car insurance or driving licences too...even more without lights on their bikes.

So, do you want us to abandon law and order, rules and regulations so that a tiny minority of whining handwringers can correct all the petty injustices they have time on their hands get ulcers over...instead minding their own bloody business ?

This society is (or WAS) run for the GREATER GOOD.

Good job hand-wringers and politically correct apologists weren't around in World War Two - Hitler would have walked straight in

[grahamw48]

OK Hands up! i suppose it is EXTREME Graham. You being British you are probably fully aware of how easily false identity can be obtained BUT i was just trying to point out to some on here who may not be aware that its so easily possible and at low cost.

I really DO NOT want to "abandon law and order, rules and regulations", infact part of what i am trying to argue is that Immigration officers adhere to "law and order, rules and regulations" for the "GREATER GOOD", in this case the vast majority stopped by them who were clearly NOT illegal immigrants and possibly mostly already British citizens. If the Immigration officers were following their own rules then it would have been for the greater good and probably not even reported in the media in the first place.

Oh, so you were there when the checks were carried out ?

Ok, I'm happy to accept that you have some sort of super powers that enable you to sort the wheat from the chaff, but I'm afraid that if I was a UKBA officer, I'd have to use a system involving 'probability', based on the intelligence that was available to me, and beforehand, the not inconsiderable resources of my employers.

It may upset the odd sensitive person's little applecart, but then to fit into society we all have to accept the odd inconveniences....like traffic jams and queues...and not being able to pee in the street, or smoke in a restaurant, or wear shoes in a mosque. A good thing we don't all kick off because we feel slighted at our particular personal freedom being restricted. Then there WOULD be chaos.

[lordna]

Oh, so you were there when the checks were carried out ?

Ok, I'm happy to accept that you have some sort of super powers that enable you to sort the wheat from the chaff, but I'm afraid that if I was a UKBA officer, I'd have to use a system involving 'probability', based on the intelligence that was available to me, and beforehand, the not inconsiderable resources of my employers.

It may upset the odd sensitive person's little applecart, but then to fit into society we all have to accept the odd inconveniences....like traffic jams and queues...and not being able to pee in the street, or smoke in a restaurant, or wear shoes in a mosque. A good thing we don't all kick off because we feel slighted at our particular personal freedom being restricted. Then there WOULD be chaos.

Clearly i wasn't there but doing what most of us do and thats go by what is reported in the press. In particular http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.co...rain-stations/

I think its VERY WRONG that immigration officers think they can be heavy handed with the public. If they acted according to their rules then there will be a record of ALL the people stopped as they must of had evidence they were breaking the law in the first place. Out of all those stopped 3 were arrested, i wonder what percentage that is that had to bear aggressive behaviour for no apparent reason other than just going freely about their business? Its a good thing some of us do "Kick off" else maybe personal freedoms you currently enjoy and take for granted may soon disappear as it has done throughout history in other countries and where people have been subjected to persecution or even just disappeared overnight. IMHO Theresa May needs to make a statement about what actually happened here as clearly what is reported to have happened from witnesses and Nick Cleggs speech on Freedom (see earlier) seem to be a complete contradiction of government policy.

Having said that i do understand your point of view although it does differ from mine significantly. But at least i hope we both appreciate that we live in a country where at least we can have a different opinion and still be able to voice it. If people are not able to question what goes on or just accept it, what then?

[grahamw48]

Well, clearly we do have different views on this (I don't read newspapers, incidentally), so let's leave it at that and stay friends.

[lordna]

well gladly i am not the only one who feels this is wrong.

Shadow immigration minister Chris Bryant said: ''The Home Secretary said that it is unacceptable to stop someone simply on the basis of their ethnicity.

[lordna]

Well, clearly we do have different views on this (I don't read newspapers, incidentally), so let's leave it at that and stay friends.

Yes please!... thanks for tolerating my views!

[joebloggs]

if you can't stop and question people how are you going to find out if someone has a legal right to be in the UK? ask them to attend an interview next week . if you can't , then surely word will get around, 'come to the UK, the police and border agency cant question you', you can just refuse and walk away, that will just encourage more to come

illegal immigrants in the UK have been estimated to be up to 1m , 150,000 of those have been REFUSED permission to stay in the UK and are still here.

its because little has been done to stop this that's encouraged more and more to come here, imagine 1 out of 60 people you see on the street has no legal right to be here, how are they living in the uk, are they illegally working or committing crime? where are they living, are they been exploited, are they paying tax? using the nhs ?etc..

it shows you the scale of the problem when 140 people were arrested in 1 day