One dead in Woolwich 'machete' attack

[tiger31]

pity she did,nt empty her magazine into the scum

[fred]

I`d like to know why it took the old bill 20 minutes to get there?
The bravery of some of the people there during that 20 minutes was extraordinary..A few of them even seemed to confront them whilst they were still armed..
One person interviewed the scum with the cleaver and I don't think I even saw the camera shake.
Extraordinary bravery IMO.

[Iani]

Quite. Just why did it take so long.................and this brings up the obvious comment of how come it didn't take so long when the EDL turned up and kicked off.
This is probably purely due to the fact the police by that time expected trouble so the response time was fast - but it gives fuel to the anger.

Not going to comment too much on this, way too angry

[Dedworth]

I`d like to know why it took the old bill 20 minutes to get there?

The Police nowadays put grossly overweight and unfit officers out on the street rather than making them custody sergeants or letting them go on the sick.

I saw 3 lardy officers from 2 separate forces (Met & Surrey) gorging themselves at Cobham Services M25 the other week. Their flak jackets must have been specially made XXXL size. I should have taken their shoulder and vehicle numbers and queried their condition with the Home Secretary.

Thank goodness our armed forces adhere to strict fitness standards otherwise we'd have a load of useless bloaters on the front line.

[bigmarco]

I understand the police were there fairly quickly but kept back and did nothing until the armed response unit arrived. Quite shocking that they adopted this approach, surely they could have done something rammed them with some vehicles.
A lot of coppers seem to want the easy life nowadays sitting in vans outside Mosques or annoying motorists.

[johncar54]

The police (un armed) apparently arrived in 9 mins, The Armed Response Unit was a few minutes behind. As all who live in the UK must be aware cops don't carry guns routinely, thus when armed incident occurs they are not just down the street.

And remember cops are just like the guys who post here, they don't have super powers, although they choose to put themselves in harms way to protect the public. An unarmed officer against a guy with a gun cannot do much to help anyone.

( I am surprised this post has taken so long to criticise the police, but now the usual suspect are crawling out of the woodwork with their penny's worth).

[Dedworth]

( I am surprised this post has taken so long to criticise the police, but now the usual suspect are crawling out of the woodwork with their penny's worth).

I've no problem with the majority of our Police but find it totally unacceptable that fat and unfit officers are allowed to remain in fully paid public employment

[grahamw48]

I'm always shocked at the tiny cops they seem to have in London too. I'm only 6'1", but seem to tower over some of them. Also, (while I'm having a moan) the uselessness of having unarmed women cops trying to tackle large drunken youths, etc. Equality laws gone mad.

Send a man to do a man's job for goodness sake.

[bigmarco]

The Armed Response Unit was a few minutes behind.

20 minutes according to eyewitnesses. Forgive me for thinking they're there to protect and serve. I've seen a hell of a lot of pictures and recordings that show women and children in the area as this was happening. I think they deserved better protection than what they got.

[johncar54]

20 minutes according to eyewitnesses.

And maybe the same people believe in Santa Claus too but I ain't going to believe them. The actual recorded police messages are accurate accounts, not guesses, might be's and may be's. If the Gov (elected by you the public) had not reduced police numbers (like all public servant) there might have a unit closer too.

(PS Warning : Everyone on this forum is going to have to prove they are not overweight or some of us will bar them for posting )

[andy222]

Hi guys I havnt been on here for a while. Working hard. I just had to contribute to this awful attack. So many questions to be answered on this vile attack. However I did see this and to be honest I cant argue with him. http://englishdefenceleague.org/edl-...oolwich-attack

[Terpe]

“Once that information about a gun or guns being present was known firearms officers were assigned at 2.24pm. Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned..

Source:-
http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/w...me-232227.html

The highlighting is down to me, not the original report.

[grahamw48]

20 minutes according to eyewitnesses.

And maybe the same people believe in Santa Claus too but I ain't going to believe them. The actual recorded police messages are accurate accounts, not guesses, might be's and may be's. If the Gov (elected by you the public) had not reduced police numbers (like all public servant) there might have a unit closer too.

(PS Warning : Everyone on this forum is going to have to prove they are not overweight or some of us will bar them for posting )

I'm 80kgs, 61 years old and physically fit....and I still find it unnacceptable that Police Officers are not required to maintain themselves in good shape.
IMO this renders them incapable of carrying out the duties expected of them.

They already have the luxury of being able to take early retirement on a pension, as my brother-in-law did aged 45 years. (I still have a nephew...his son, on the force).

At that age I was still digging tunnels, and my site superintendant was 64 years old and probably fitter and stronger than some of his manual workers.

[Dedworth]

Graham it's not so much about individual coppers nowadays but teamwork.

You mentioned height challenged officers in London. I keep picturing a few drunken thugs brawling whilst the shorties stand idle, the minority physically fit officers break up the fight and bring the thugs to the floor where they are held down by a belly flop from the lumps

[grahamw48]

Well, from those fly on the wall cop shows, anything involving a foot chase of more than a couple of hundred yards (usually in pursuit of some scrawny smackhead), and some of the cops look like they need an ambulance calling for them.

Then again, could you be arsed, knowing that the criminal is going to be given another 'caution' ?

[johncar54]

They already have the luxury of being able to take early retirement on a pension, as my brother-in-law did aged 45 years.

Unless they have changed the system (again)

Police Offices, unlike the civil Service, do not get free pensions but contribute to them

Whilst they can retire after 25 years’ service on half pay pensions, they cannot draw their pension until they would have completed 30 years’ service or they reach the age of 50.
Officers who retire after 30 years’ service get two thirds of pay pension.
Officers who are forced to retire get a pension commensurate with the period they have served with, if appropriate, an addition amount for injuries sustained on duty.
Again, unless they have changed the regulations, there is no requirement for officers to keep trim and physically fit and provisions are provided to encourage them to do so.


Incidentally. The pension is based solely on the pay, it does not include overtime, or allowances etc. Thus when I retired after 30 years, on 2/3rds 'of pay' pension it was in reality 1/3 of what I had been paid each month.

[Dedworth]

The UK police always shoot to kill, although euphemistically it is called 'shoot to stop' but the only way one can be sure to stop a person who is armed and believed to be threatening life is to kill them.

As a former ‘authorised shot’ I know it is difficult to hit a person, let alone shoot them ‘in their trigger finger.’ In training many times officers missed the life sized torso targets.

"Firearms Officers" 10 or 12 shots to "wound" them - this lot should go on a firearms course. The scum are lucky they weren't faced by the SAS where it would have been a double tap and a funeral.

[grahamw48]

+ Give them bigger guns.

[johncar54]

On the video clip I saw, taken from an upstairs flat I think, the *****s (suspects) were running away. If so, the officers not only were trying to hit moving targets but also ensuring that they did not shoot innocent bystanders, who was in the line of shot (friendly fire ! ).

I agree through, pity they were not killed. But then if UK had the death penalty, failing to kill them would not have mattered. Am I allowed to say the death penalty should exist or is that as ASBO offence ?

[fred]

They already have the luxury of being able to take early retirement on a pension, as my brother-in-law did aged 45 years.

Unless they have changed the system (again)

Police Offices, unlike the civil Service, do not get free pensions but contribute to them

Whilst they can retire after 25 years’ service on half pay pensions, they cannot draw their pension until they would have completed 30 years’ service or they reach the age of 50.
Officers who retire after 30 years’ service get two thirds of pay pension.
Officers who are forced to retire get a pension commensurate with the period they have served with, if appropriate, an addition amount for injuries sustained on duty.
Again, unless they have changed the regulations, there is no requirement for officers to keep trim and physically fit and provisions are provided to encourage them to do so.


Incidentally. The pension is based solely on the pay, it does not include overtime, or allowances etc. Thus when I retired after 30 years, on 2/3rds 'of pay' pension it was in reality 1/3 of what I had been paid each month.

John..I know you was a copper back in the day but do you think it unreasonable that the average tax payer today should feel that their general safety is not compromised in this kind of situation given the facts,testimony and video evidence of this case?
If it really took the armed coppers 20 minutes to deal with the situation then they perhaps should feel rather lucky that the terrorists in this case had 20 minutes to waste and hang around waiting for their martyrdom without the need to hack more innocent women,men and children with a meat cleaver..They even had more than enough time to be interviewed by the public for crying out loud!!
IMO,it could have been a lot,lot worse and from my perspective the old bill were unprepared for such an incident..
Im surprised at that given the supposed increased "security" since 9/11 and the London attacks.
I thought that the Police were a lot more prepared for this type of thing these days..
How naive was I?

[grahamw48]

Less likelihood of 'collateral', at close quarters, as was the case here ?

.

[fred]

On the video clip I saw, taken from an upstairs flat I think, the *****s (suspects) were running away. If so, the officers not only were trying to hit moving targets but also ensuring that they did not shoot innocent bystanders, who was in the line of shot (friendly fire ! ).

I agree through, pity they were not killed. But then if UK had the death penalty, failing to kill them would not have mattered. Am I allowed to say the death penalty should exist or is that as ASBO offence ?

Actually John.. From the video I saw.One of them ran at high speed straight towards the Police car yielding a meat cleaver.. In my estimation he was shot roughly 5/6 foot from the vehicle just as the copper opened the vehicle door..
His scum mate seemed to have bottled it and followed the foot path which is where he looked to be shot down..
Cant be 100% sure as there was a large tree blocking the view of the elevated camera.

[johncar54]

John...... but do you think it unreasonable that the average tax payer today should feel that their general safety is not compromised in this kind of situation given the facts,testimony and video evidence of this case?
If it really took the armed coppers 20 minutes to deal with the situation................

According to the Quote by Therpe, it was 14 mins for the armed unit to attend.

But the solution is in the hands of the electorate to ensure that they complain when the people who represent them don't do things the way they believe they should. But when was the last time (or even the first time ) when almost anybody actually confronted their MP about anything ?

I don't have a vote in UK, so don't blame me.

I live in Spain where the police are armed and not frightened of not getting public backing if they shoot someone. In UK the police get criticised for being too fat, let alone killing someone !

[Dedworth]

But the solution is in the hands of the electorate to ensure that they complain when the people who represent them don't do things the way they believe they should. But when was the last time (or even the first time ) when almost anybody actually confronted their MP about anything ?

I know you've expressed this a few times John and you are correct.

Reading it this time reminded me to phone up Mrs May's office about some unanswered emails. I gave them a call which should get it sorted.

She was in opposition when we last met so I feel an appointment at her surgery is needed

PS I'm 100% behind the Police when they kill the scumbags - I just wish it was a more regular occurrence

[Jamesey]

Just read an interesting article on this.

I totally agree with the last paragraph.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...r-8631378.html