First Refusal

[Arthur Little]

First (in OUR experience) under the New Rules - 'Raichard' ... based on income shortfall - and unlikely to be the last!

I wonder how long it'll be before the Government faces a spate of legal challenges???

[joebloggs]

the sad thing is he probably earns too much to claim legal aid, but hasn't enough to pay a solicitor upto £400 an hour especially with all the cuts to legal aid now.

[Terpe]

The refusal reason given by the ECO is that bonuses and overtime is not counted towards income.

The Immigrations rules under Appendix FM (top of page 13) clearly states that

Overtime, commission-based pay and bonuses will be counted as earnings from salaried employment.

Well that's my understanding. Unless someone else has a different angle on it ?
To me it seems clear.
I guess the only 'weasel word' is "will be counted as earnings from salaried employment."

[joebloggs]

yes Terpe your right, but i wonder what was his lowest figure in those 6 months, maybe they used that and it didnt come to £18,600

did he get a bonus and overtime every month,if not looks like thats the reason.

[Terpe]

yes Terpe your right, but i wonder what was his lowest figure in those 6 months, maybe they used that and it didnt come to £18,600

did he get a bonus and overtime every month,if not looks like thats the reason.

Totally agreed with that joe.
But I still come back to the reason for refusal being given that bonuses and overtime don't count.
The ECO acknowledged the bonuses and overtime but said only not allowed, didn't mention not sufficient to meet the threshold.

I did suggest to check the payslips, especially in line with taking only the lowest.
Raichard seems to indicate they are all within compliant range.

Hopefully the ECM will overturn quickly, if the letter of reconsideration is taken outside of the formal appeals procedure.

Appears to be a crazy and completely unjust decision.

[rhaichard]

yes Terpe your right, but i wonder what was his lowest figure in those 6 months, maybe they used that and it didnt come to £18,600

did he get a bonus and overtime every month,if not looks like thats the reason.

joe ,
yeah he had bonuses and overtime every month its in his original payslip and employer state that he is earned regular bonuses and overtime

[Leen]

Hi Sir Joe,Sir Terpe and Sir Arthur....im really worried now esp that rhaichard had a refusal....as far i can remember i applied 1 week ahead of her and never heard anything from them...do i have to be worried?we are planning to send email next week to just follow up on the status of my app...we are worried that my docs was over look bcoz i applied on Friday,what do you think the best we can do at this moment?

[Arthur Little]

The refusal reason given by the ECO is that bonuses and overtime is not counted towards income.

The Immigrations rules under Appendix FM (top of page 13) clearly states that

Overtime, commission-based pay and bonuses will be counted as earnings from salaried employment

To me it seems clear.

Oh ... the instructions are crystal clear. And Myrna & myself - not to mention hordes of others who applied in the past - consider ourselves extremely fortunate that we weren't affected by these crass, unfair changes. I mean ... "there but for the Grace of God go I!" I, for one - being an living on a modest pension - probably wouldn't have qualified nowadays and I'd be far from alone in that respect.

Nevertheless, it doesn't stop me from feeling heartfelt sorry for those lower~earning, law-abiding couples deprived of THEIR basic human RIGHT to live together as husband and wife ... while is awash with unsavoury characters - engaged in all sorts of nefarious activities - whom the selfsame Government claims to be powerless to deport.

[lastlid]

Hi Sir Joe,Sir Terpe and Sir Arthur....im really worried now esp that rhaichard had a refusal....as far i can remember i applied 1 week ahead of her and never heard anything from them...do i have to be worried?we are planning to send email next week to just follow up on the status of my app...we are worried that my docs was over look bcoz i applied on Friday,what do you think the best we can do at this moment?

It seems that processing time is almost random. It can take one day ( a friend of my wife's took 1 day) or evidently up to 3 months, without rhyme or reason. So because Rhaichards has taken less time than yours does not really imply anything. You will certainly hear eventually, preferably sooner rather than later.

[andy222]

See what I mean about this being a grey area. Looks like they are making the rules up as they go along. I suppose unsociable hours go out the window too.

[lastlid]

See what I mean about this being a grey area. Looks like they are making the rules up as they go along.

Yes. I do see what you mean. Exactly.

[bigmarco]

Not good news but lets hope common sense prevails and the matter receives reconsideration.

[lastlid]

Not good news but lets hope common sense prevails and the matter receives reconsideration.

Yes. Its okay when you know the rules and they know the rules and they play by their own rules, but when they don't play by their own rules its more than a bit unsettling.

[andy222]

Well in their rules there was a mention of gross income I think any judge will overturn decisions because of this. There is no mention of overtime not being included

[lastlid]

I have worked with many people in the offshore oil industry for whom 100% of their salary is effectively a bonus. AKA dayraters. They are paid by the day that they work. I wonder how they would fair under such circumstances. Some of these people would earn 2 or 3 times the £18600 minimum income and more, even 6 figure salaries in some cases. How would the UKBA see that? Would it be a case of " we see that you have no fixed income on paper and cannot accept your bonuses of 100 grand a year, so therefore we have no choice but to refuse your visa" ???

Surely this ECO has got it wrong.

[lastlid]

Andy. By the way. Ever consider a job offshore as a rig medic? They use a lot of para medics. Two to four per rig. Good money.

[andy222]

The ECO is being told what to do by green and co. The problem is they are not telling us.

[bigmarco]

Yes. Its okay when you know the rules and they know the rules and they play by their own rules, but when they don't play by their own rules its more than a bit unsettling.

Totally agree Lastlid. Thats why I think its a misinterpretation of the rules by the ECO. A well worded reconsideration request pointing out the error might just do the trick.
I really can't see that they would let this go to an appeal hearing if they've misinterpreted their own rules. If the rules state that Bonuses and overtime should count then they've made a up which they should acknowledge straight away.

[jehzroblenida]

Rhaichard and I had the same ECO who refused our applications. That particular ECO is totally awful! The only thing I can suggest is to complain about this guy who doesn't know what he's doing or probably a delaying tactics

[Mr Rhaichard]

hello everyone,
so rhaichard or mrs rhaichard has been telling me all day about the help and support shes been getting on here today, thank you all for that. i guess i should ask my first question here too...
should i include a letter from my boss stating my full salary/bonus and overtime with any letters i send off? my salary with my guaranteed bonus is exactly the 18600 they wanted, as you can imagine i'm pretty mad at this as i made sure to read up on bonus and overtime being included before the application

[Terpe]

hello everyone,
so rhaichard or mrs rhaichard has been telling me all day about the help and support shes been getting on here today, thank you all for that. i guess i should ask my first question here too...
should i include a letter from my boss stating my full salary/bonus and overtime with any letters i send off? my salary with my guaranteed bonus is exactly the 18600 they wanted, as you can imagine i'm pretty mad at this as i made sure to read up on bonus and overtime being included before the application

Yes, do everything you can do to support the application. Secure explanation letter from employer.

You both MUST follow the appeals procedure correctly. This will be included with the refusal letter.
In addition, please do send a letter and e-mail to the Embassy Visa section stating clearly that you believe the ECO has made a significant and basic error in the determination of Immigrations rules and that you request a reconsideration. State why.
Also lodge a complaint against the ECO for the error with the ambassador and the UK ombudsman
Follow up with a letter to your MP with your complaint and state UKBA unfit for purpose.

Problem is that the ECM is under no obligation to accept your direct letter outside of appeal rules.
That's why you MUST follow appeal procedure as a formality.

It's so unjust that this type of mistake may take some time to resolve. That's why I suggest a multi-prong approach.

Good luck, keep us all informed .... please. as it can help others too

[lastlid]

Totally agree Lastlid. Thats why I think its a misinterpretation of the rules by the ECO. A well worded reconsideration request pointing out the error might just do the trick.
I really can't see that they would let this go to an appeal hearing if they've misinterpreted their own rules. If the rules state that Bonuses and overtime should count then they've made a up which they should acknowledge straight away.

Thats whats confusing, Marco, as I continually wonder why they have let yours go to appeal. My thinking is that they were in the wrong with your case, but for some reason they still insist in defending their decision. I am of course wishing for your success, but the situation seems a real puzzle.

[bigmarco]

Rhaichard and I had the same ECO who refused our applications. That particular ECO is totally awful! The only thing I can suggest is to complain about this guy who doesn't know what he's doing or probably a delaying tactics

Who was the ECO or what was his initial. Just asking to see if it's the same one who refused us.

[chieldave]

is that ECO really aware of the new rules or is he reading it completely?seems to me his eyes closed the moment he reading that area of overtime and bonuses

makes me worried for coming application,as if this same pattern happening with that particular ECO or to others who have the same thinking as him: doh

really hoping for rhaichard's soonest positive result after asking reconsideration...and to you as well bigmarco for the appealed case.

[bigmarco]

Thats whats confusing, Marco, as I continually wonder why they have let yours go to appeal. My thinking is that they were in the wrong with your case, but for some reason they still insist in defending their decision. I am of course wishing for your success, but the situation seems a real puzzle.

The only real difference is that this seems to be a misinterpretation in this case. The new rules say you can include bonuses and overtime and yet this ECO says you cant. A glaring mistake which can be put right by the ECM.
Our case seems slightly different in as much as the ECO appears to have made a judgement on our relationship and then said we never sent certain things ie My Passport and Photographs of us together. Even my Solicitor finds it strange that on 2 occassions they have stated they never received Photographs and My Passport and yet they returned 28 photographs with the refusal aswell as a photocopy of my passport.
Thanks for your good wishes it is appreciated and our day in court is fast approaching. Watch this space .

[rhaichard]

is that ECO really aware of the new rules or is he reading it completely?seems to me his eyes closed the moment he reading that area of overtime and bonuses

makes me worried for coming application,as if this same pattern happening with that particular ECO or to others who have the same thinking as him: doh

really hoping for rhaichard's soonest positive result after asking reconsideration...and to you as well bigmarco for the appealed case.

very clear ... my husband and i know that theres no problem in our application ... but ECO gave a unacceptable decision ... i look online and emailed vfs and they say overtime and bonuses is counted as income threshold