Rogue doctors

[Doc Alan]

At present doctors who are nationals of countries outside the UK, European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland , or UK nationals graduating from medical schools outside UK, EEA, or Switzerland, must take language + clinical tests to work in UK. This means IELTS (International English Language Testing System) + PLAB ( Professional and Linguistic Assessment Board) for filipinos...Joe Bloggs knows all about that...
But European Union laws prevent such testing of EU doctors because it's "contrary to free movement of people" The system let a German doctor get a job and administer a fatal overdose on his first shift as an out of hours GP At last it seems that our GMC (General Medical Council) is trying to to prevent such rogue doctors heading to the UK, by pleading with the EU to allow similar testing to take place on all doctors wishing to work in the UK

[bornatbirth]

surely if they cant talk speak english, how would they get the job

[Doc Alan]

surely if they cant talk speak english, how would they get the job

Niall Dixon, Chief Executive of the GMC (General Medical Council) here, is quoted as saying " If a French doctor comes through the door for a job, we cannot order a language test - that's against Euro law, it is contrary to free movement of people. We don't know how many poor European doctors are here because we cannot check. We find out when it is too late"

[bornatbirth]

but who gives them the job, you cant stop them coming here but you dont have to employ them?

[Doc Alan]

but who gives them the job, you cant stop them coming here but you dont have to employ them?

It can be surprisingly difficult NOT to appoint someone, when the responsibility lies not only with the doctors and nurses they would be working with, but also Human Resources ("Personnel") Departments and other management representatives Obviously if they can't speak English at all they wouldn't be applying. But it concerns me that there are two standards , one for those (like filipinos) who MUST take the IELTS / PLABS tests and those (like the German out of hours doctor) who need not

[joebloggs]

your right Alan, and also im pretty sure if non British EU citizen brought their partner to the UK on a family permit and they were an IMG from outside Europe (Filipino for example) they would not need to do PLAB for the same reasons you've listed (exercising their EU treaty rights)

also the GMC will be raising the pass mark for IELTS in nov i think to at least 7 in each category.

but its up to the NHS trust who are employing the EU doc to check they are qualified and also their English is good enough. but the doc you mentioned i believe some trusts refused him, but one accepted him

but yes its , all docs who work in the UK should be registered with the GMC.

[-sillybilly-]

It can be surprisingly difficult NOT to appoint someone, when the responsibility lies not only with the doctors and nurses they would be working with, but also Human Resources ("Personnel") Departments and other management representatives Obviously if they can't speak English at all they wouldn't be applying. But it concerns me that there are two standards , one for those (like filipinos) who MUST take the IELTS / PLABS tests and those (like the German out of hours doctor) who need not

I think they all should do. Doctors in the Philippines are trying to be a nurse to be able to go abroad and work as a nurse as they couldnt use their professional degree as they need such and such!
They have studied long enough for 10 years in the Philippines to be a Doctor. But going abroad they need to study again and take loads of english and medical exams! Its not fair.
I trust the Filipino Doctors and Dentist than those foreign ones who doesnt even know how to speak english properly. Filipino doctors are much much better to be honest!

[joebloggs]

I think they all should do. Doctors in the Philippines are trying to be a nurse to be able to go abroad and work as a nurse as they couldnt use their professional degree as they need such and such!
They have studied long enough for 10 years in the Philippines to be a Doctor. But going abroad they need to study again and take loads of english and medical exams! Its not fair.
I trust the Filipino Doctors and Dentist than those foreign ones who doesnt even know how to speak english properly. Filipino doctors are much much better to be honest!

my misses has met a few Filipino docs who are working as nurses or working in labs for the NHS, and they don't tell their employer or anyone else they are registered doc in the phils.

most have given up being a doc in the UK, because of the cost of the exams, the difficulty in passing them and the time it takes..

it took my misses nearly 5yrs and £1,000s by the time she had finished to register with the GMC here. like you said she spent nearly 10yrs at uni in the phils studying to be a doc.

its a long and difficult road, even when your registered, you still have the problems of finding a job (my misses drives 100 miles a day!) and still your not in the 'system' because you really need to have done UK's foundation FY1 and FY2 year, so my misses is lucky shes got a FY1 job (equivalent to doing INTERNSHIP in the phils ) without that and FY2 its near impossible to get training...

its an uphill struggle, but you'll get there in the end

[Doc Alan]

Please read what Sillybilly and Joebloggs have to say, I respect them both a great deal
Good communication is important in all walks of life, but in looking after patients it's vital Ideally standards should be the same for ALL doctors regardless of nationality, and while we as individuals can do little more than rant, at least people with influence in the GMC now recognise the problem.

[joebloggs]

i dont think the problem is the gov, its the EU directive that needs changing.

[somebody]

Although not perfect surely they have intensive interviews in English and simply have tests they make all employees take which test numeracy and literacy along with logic?
At the company I work for there are plenty who are from EU and all when they join the UK division or another countries have to take the tests..

One of the major reasons sited is Health and safety. As you say if you cant communicate

Thats how most UK companies i know get round making sure those who like you say they cant test on English. But of course it costs money

Far to many excuses where people hide behind the blame it on the Eu although the EU does it best to make a nusiance of itself

[terenchion]

well i disagree with several of you on this subject.. many filipino doctors and several i have encountered in cebu have not been fit to call themselves doctors... i wouldnt trust them opening a can of beans let alone my stomach.... The standard of teaching for filipino docs is not as good as western hospitals... in one hospital in particular in cebu there is 2 floors dedicated to CARDIOLOGISTS must be 60 of them all in their little offices... they are no more cardiologists than I am.. I think they just have a diploma in it... they certainly couldnt perform any surgery.... So thats just one instant.. gyneocology is another.. So I agree with the UK setting higher standards.. Yes i also agree there should be checks on others in the EU coming into the UK.. There are crap doctors from other countries within the EU.

[keithAngel]

I broadly agree with the above post whilst there are excellent hospitals in the Phils the majority are nowhere near up to speck

On the subject of communication this is an education problem I was in a Montassory School the other day , signs every where saying "speak English" When we got into a conversation with the registration person and a teacher they immediatly started on in Cebuano untill I pointed to the signs

They commented to Jhean my English was "to fluent" lol

This from a Government website

" DFA is strict about the personal appearance system, absolutely no chaperone allowed for passport applicants "aging" 18 years old onwards.

http://epassport.com.ph/what-to-expect

[fred]

Talking about schools Keith..The Dept of Education have just announced here that high school will have an additional 2 years of high school beginning 2014.. About bloody time!
I agree partly with Terencion as there are some very bad doctors here and VERY bad nurses in many provincial hospitals including many in Luzon,some of whom should never be allowed employment in the UK.
Always seems to be a different story in the expensive joints though..Manila and Cebu doctors hospitals and Makati medical are a few examples..

[malditako]

i believe the philippine goverment should implement again the national college entrance test just like before...where u need to pass the exam to enroll in college or university school and those who cannot pass can just enroll in vocational school....its easy to enter college now and uni as long as u have money in phils as theres so many school thats only after for money and income..

[grahamw48]

To me it only seems common sense that those responsible for the lives of others must be trained to the very highest STANDARDS.

They must also be able to communicate fluently with those who they are treating and those with whom they are working.

I believe highly qualified native British youngsters are being turned down by medical schools because they are full to capacity.
Foreign students paying higher fees are taking a great many places on these courses.

Training our own children to be doctors should be taking priority over economics and greed.

Sadly our govt. has very little power over the running of this country now, and that is why we have to put up with a lot of this nonsense foisted upon us by the EC.

I voted against EC membership twice, guessing that what originally was supposed to be a 'trading club' would ultimately grow into the sovereignty-grabbing monster that it has become.

It is my right to be treated by a doctor of my choice, and I shall exercise that right.

[joebloggs]

I believe highly qualified native British youngsters are being turned down by medical schools because they are full to capacity.

Foreign students paying higher fees are taking a great many places on these courses.

even worse british doctors need to do foundation yr1 and 2, and their competing against EU and NON EU docotors, and what is attracting them is being paid to do it..

http://www.bma.org.uk/careers/traini...dateaugust.jsp

next yr looks like it will be over subscribed and british ones might not get a place

[Doc Alan]

The General Medical Council sets UK standards for undergraduate medical education. Entry to British medical schools is very competitive. There are more places for medical students now than previously but obviously not all can be admitted to UK medical schools. The numbers have to be matched to the numbers of doctors required, and as joebloggs has pointed out there is a shortage of the training posts needed for full GMC registration, due in part to the number of EU applicants.
The GMC also sets the standards for qualified doctors, and "revalidation" based on regular appraisals is to be introduced across the UK. The idea is to make sure that all doctors reach and maintain the same high level of practise. Unfortunately "rogue doctors" can never be eliminated. The frustration to the GMC and everyone who rightly expects doctors to be safe is that so far they are unable to apply the same rules to EU doctors as they do to international medical graduates (from outside the EU). To my knowledge there is no news on this since I first posted the thread.
As for the quality of filipino doctors, we've had a range of opinions posted here. I suspect, from what you have said, that the Professional Regulations Commission (PRC) does not set the same high standards as our GMC.

[Pete/London]

Dear Doc
your advice would be appreciated as to whether I should let my GP know of a concern with a procedure I had a few weeks ago.I had an endoscopy by a senior English consultant under my private health insurance.I hung around from 08.30 until 15.30 to go down to theatre and he was about to sedate me when I told him I wanted to drive immediately afterwards, as I had an appointment elsewhere. I agreed to go for it without sedation and was therefore fully aware of all that was going on around me. He said it would be like sucking a boiled sweet but it felt more like swallowing a sword
Anyway, while the camera was looking at the esophagus and stomach the anaesthetist inserted another tube and took a biopsy. Job done.
I met with the consultant a week later and he gave me the result of the examination and I asked the result of the biopsy.He looked at his notes and said he didnt take one. When I reminded him he said he will have to go through his theatre notes as he could not recall asking for a biopsy, and was sure none was taken.
Another 7 days later the consultant ring me at home and was quite excited to inform me he `had` taken a biopsy and they had discovered Helicobacter Pylori and he then sent me a prescription
to treat it.
Now I really like this consultant, and I was confident in him up to this procedure. But, if I had been sedated, I would probably not have been any the wiser and the condition might have been missed. What do you advise ?

[Doc Alan]

What do you advise ?

I've sent you a private message in reply, as this is not a medical forum, but I don't think your consultant is a "rogue doctor".

[grahamw48]

Just check you still have both of your kidneys.

[Lancashirelad]

I had an Endoscopy recently,its like swallowing a hosepipe! They told me try not to gag, haha as if its my choice oh my word if i have to have another i will be saying knock me out please!
But at least they found my problem, I have a hiatus stomach hernia.
Hope ur feeling better now

[Pete/London]

I had an Endoscopy recently,its like swallowing a hosepipe! They told me try not to gag, haha as if its my choice oh my word if i have to have another i will be saying knock me out please!
But at least they found my problem, I have a hiatus stomach hernia.
Hope ur feeling better now

Thanks, I`m feeling fine apart from the awful medicine, i was just concerned about him forgetting the biopsy by the way the reverse camera (colonoscopy) is a lot less fun.

get well soon