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  1. #1
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    spouse given settlement visa but children denied help

    hi everyone ive been with my partner for over 4 years and been married for almost 2 . applied for a settlement visa for her and the 3 kids this june 18 got the answer back yesterday , my wife has been granted a settlement visa and her 3 children from her previuos marriage have all been denied .

    my wife is the only provider for the kids , the husband is living with another women he signed forms infront of a lawyer saying the children could leave the country can anybody help please


  2. #2
    Respected Member IainBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    hi everyone ive been with my partner for over 4 years and been married for almost 2 . applied for a settlement visa for her and the 3 kids this june 18 got the answer back yesterday , my wife has been granted a settlement visa and her 3 children from her previuos marriage have all been denied .

    my wife is the only provider for the kids , the husband is living with another women he signed forms infront of a lawyer saying the children could leave the country can anybody help please
    Can you tell us the reasons they gave for refusing to give visas to the children. I would imagine that it would be either to do with your income or your ablity to house them satisfactorily.
    Iain.


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    hi ian here is the reason

    Quote Originally Posted by IainBusby View Post
    Can you tell us the reasons they gave for refusing to give visas to the children. I would imagine that it would be either to do with your income or your ablity to house them satisfactorily.
    Iain.
    the eco,s decision

    i have refused your visa application on this occassion through reference to the above paragraphs(s) of the immigration rules . this decision was made on the merits of the application.

    the eco,s reasons and supporting evidence

    i am not satisfied you meet the paragraph of the rules above

    Because:

    you propose to travel to the uk with your mother who has made an application for entry clearance as a spouse . whilst you have submitted an affidavit from your father you have submitted no evidence that your mother has legal custody of you . i addition you have provided no evidence of your fathers current whereabouts or that your mother has had sole responsibilty for your upbringing i am not therefore satisfied that you meet the requirments of paragraph 301(i)(b) of the immigration rules

    i therefore refuse your application.

    in reaching this decision to refuse your application i have given careful consideration to your qualified right to family and private life under article 8 of the european convention of human rights however i am satisfied that any perceived interference with your right to family life under article 8 is proportionate to the aim of maintaining an effective immigration control and does not therefore breach your convention rights. in addition , i am not satisfied that there are any insurmountable obstacles to your family member travelling to the philippines to enjoy family life with you in this country .


    please can any one give any advice


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    Respected Member aphrodite78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    the eco,s decision

    i have refused your visa application on this occassion through reference to the above paragraphs(s) of the immigration rules . this decision was made on the merits of the application.

    the eco,s reasons and supporting evidence

    i am not satisfied you meet the paragraph of the rules above

    Because:

    you propose to travel to the uk with your mother who has made an application for entry clearance as a spouse . whilst you have submitted an affidavit from your father you have submitted no evidence that your mother has legal custody of you . i addition you have provided no evidence of your fathers current whereabouts or that your mother has had sole responsibilty for your upbringing i am not therefore satisfied that you meet the requirments of paragraph 301(i)(b) of the immigration rules
    i therefore refuse your application.

    in reaching this decision to refuse your application i have given careful consideration to your qualified right to family and private life under article 8 of the european convention of human rights however i am satisfied that any perceived interference with your right to family life under article 8 is proportionate to the aim of maintaining an effective immigration control and does not therefore breach your convention rights. in addition , i am not satisfied that there are any insurmountable obstacles to your family member travelling to the philippines to enjoy family life with you in this country .


    please can any one give any advice
    can you tell us if your wife was previously married to the father of the kids. and why didn't you give the whereabouts of the father?

    i have a friend who has been previously married to the father of the kids, they disclosed everything i.e. the whereabouts of the father and that he is absolutely giving all the rights to my friend and he even said that if the eco would like to confirm the details he gave his phone number and address as well. the father of the kids is living with his new family and the custody was given to my friend. they got their visas and they are now all british citizen.

    i am sure you got the right to appeal and if you could prove that the mother is the one providing all the needs of the child (i.e. financially and emotionally) then i think you have a good chance of having the decision overturned. this is what i think but i am sure there is someone in this forum who is more experienced as they have been thru this. i hope you get their visas soon. fingers cross as i am about to file my kids apps as well and looks like i am into a bumpy ride as well.

    keep us posted wish you all the luck.
    "Success is not about how much money you have; it's about the choices you can make in life"


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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite78 View Post
    can you tell us if your wife was previously married to the father of the kids. and why didn't you give the whereabouts of the father?

    i have a friend who has been previously married to the father of the kids, they disclosed everything i.e. the whereabouts of the father and that he is absolutely giving all the rights to my friend and he even said that if the eco would like to confirm the details he gave his phone number and address as well. the father of the kids is living with his new family and the custody was given to my friend. they got their visas and they are now all british citizen.

    i am sure you got the right to appeal and if you could prove that the mother is the one providing all the needs of the child (i.e. financially and emotionally) then i think you have a good chance of having the decision overturned. this is what i think but i am sure there is someone in this forum who is more experienced as they have been thru this. i hope you get their visas soon. fingers cross as i am about to file my kids apps as well and looks like i am into a bumpy ride as well.

    keep us posted wish you all the luck.
    yes she was married to him didnt give fathers were abouts because we didnt know were he was at the time we applied if we got his details and phone number and adrress could we take this to embassy in person to appeal


  6. #6
    Respected Member IainBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    the eco,s decision

    i have refused your visa application on this occassion through reference to the above paragraphs(s) of the immigration rules . this decision was made on the merits of the application.

    the eco,s reasons and supporting evidence

    i am not satisfied you meet the paragraph of the rules above

    Because:

    you propose to travel to the uk with your mother who has made an application for entry clearance as a spouse . whilst you have submitted an affidavit from your father you have submitted no evidence that your mother has legal custody of you . i addition you have provided no evidence of your fathers current whereabouts or that your mother has had sole responsibilty for your upbringing i am not therefore satisfied that you meet the requirments of paragraph 301(i)(b) of the immigration rules

    i therefore refuse your application.

    in reaching this decision to refuse your application i have given careful consideration to your qualified right to family and private life under article 8 of the european convention of human rights however i am satisfied that any perceived interference with your right to family life under article 8 is proportionate to the aim of maintaining an effective immigration control and does not therefore breach your convention rights. in addition , i am not satisfied that there are any insurmountable obstacles to your family member travelling to the philippines to enjoy family life with you in this country .


    please can any one give any advice
    I'm almost certain that if you appeal you would win, but firstly it would be better to submit additional evidence to prove that you have "sole responsibility" for the children and their upbringing and additional information with regard to the childrens biological father, including cotact information, then ask them to re-consider their decision. I don't know exactly how you go about asking for a re-consideration, but I think there may be others on this forum who may be able to advise you on this.

    If you can't get your case re-considered, then the next step would be an appeal. If you have to lodge an appeal then I believe you have to do it within 21 days and if you appeal directly to the British embassy in Manila, they will automatically look at your case again before they send it to the UK for a full hearing.

    I get the impression that the ECO's are a pretty cynical bunch and when they look at your case again, they will make a final decision based almost entirely on whether you are likely to win an appeal or not.

    Iain.


  7. #7
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IainBusby View Post
    I'm almost certain that if you appeal you would win, but firstly it would be better to submit additional evidence to prove that you have "sole responsibility" for the children and their upbringing and additional information with regard to the childrens biological father, including cotact information, then ask them to re-consider their decision. I don't know exactly how you go about asking for a re-consideration, but I think there may be others on this forum who may be able to advise you on this.

    If you can't get your case re-considered, then the next step would be an appeal. If you have to lodge an appeal then I believe you have to do it within 21 days and if you appeal directly to the British embassy in Manila, they will automatically look at your case again before they send it to the UK for a full hearing.

    I get the impression that the ECO's are a pretty cynical bunch and when they look at your case again, they will make a final decision based almost entirely on whether you are likely to win an appeal or not.

    Iain.


    also

    how old are her 3 kids ?

    has your wife been looking after them all the time, or have they been looked after by someone else ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post


    also

    how old are her 3 kids ?

    has your wife been looking after them all the time, or have they been looked after by someone else ?
    kids are 8 , 14 and 16 my wife has been looking after them solely since 2005


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    kids are 8 14 and 16 my wife has been looking after them alone since 2005 no financial support from father


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    Respected Member aphrodite78's Avatar
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    based from my experience when i was first denied, i looked at the name of the eco who made the decision, i asked politely if i could speak to him and asked him what else can i do for him to reconsider my case. he told me the things i have got to do. he gave me a number to call when i got all the docs and i called him every now and then. they gave me 7 days to come up with the docs they required but unfortunately i couldn't really make it. so in the end we have to go thru the appeal process (joebloggs have mentioned it) but i ran out of time again. so in the end i have to file another application was turned down again but we insisted that my case should be dealt by the higher eco (which they did) and the decision was overturned.
    if i were you i would ask them nicely (the embassy staff) if it's possible that they reconsider it in light of the new evidence(s) you got. present it neatly with covering letter, make sure you could prove that you got the sole responsibility, explain why you didn't included the fathers' whereabouts and fingers cross you'll be fine. chin up i am now british citizen despite of 2 denials, i am sure you can overcome this. keep us posted and good luck.
    "Success is not about how much money you have; it's about the choices you can make in life"


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    can you explain how you asked the eco in detail so we can try this also thanks


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    can you explain how you asked the eco in detail so we can try this also thanks


  13. #13
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    kids are 8 14 and 16 my wife has been looking after them alone since 2005 no financial support from father
    your wife must have been given parental authority by the court when her marriage was annulled ?

    did the embassy interview the kids ?

    if i was you i would appeal like Iain has said,

    and provide evidence your wife has custody of the kids.

    provide evidence of where their father is, so they can contact him. - did the father mention he doesn't support them financially or has little or no say in their upbringing ?

    evidence of 'sole responsibilty' - http://www.gherson.com/News/Sole-Res...in-the-UK.aspx

    does your wife have school bills?, a letter from the principal of their school stating your wife is the one who pays the bills, attends parents evenings etc,
    medical bills for them ? evidence that your wife provides for them financially and is responsible for their upbringing..

    i'm sure if you can get this evidence your app could be reconsidered, if not as Iain has said, i think to, you would win an appeal, but you dont want to wait upto 8 months without her kids.

    seek some expert advice to from your local law centre, cab, or http://www.iasuk.org/home.aspx


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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    your wife must have been given parental authority by the court when her marriage was annulled ?

    did the embassy interview the kids ?

    if i was you i would appeal like Iain has said,

    and provide evidence your wife has custody of the kids.

    provide evidence of where their father is, so they can contact him. - did the father mention he doesn't support them financially or has little or no say in their upbringing ?

    evidence of 'sole responsibilty' - http://www.gherson.com/News/Sole-Res...in-the-UK.aspx

    does your wife have school bills?, a letter from the principal of their school stating your wife is the one who pays the bills, attends parents evenings etc,
    medical bills for them ? evidence that your wife provides for them financially and is responsible for their upbringing..

    i'm sure if you can get this evidence your app could be reconsidered, if not as Iain has said, i think to, you would win an appeal, but you dont want to wait upto 8 months without her kids.

    seek some expert advice to from your local law centre, cab, or http://www.iasuk.org/home.aspx
    sory to interupt Sir Joe. Im also bit of situation here have a daughter from previous relationship and wnt to bring her and apply togther with me spouse visa,,soon i got no idea to where is her father now .and im not married to him before i meet my english husband..the fathers name of my daugther dont appear on her BC as well. do you think embasy wil ask more evedence on that..i got no contact of him since i give birth of my daughter since last 2003 now she is 5 years old..
    not a problem with my 2 other kids from my english husband as i can apply ther passort right away..yes?
    am just bit awkward to my child from pervious relationshi but i assure i have all my responsibilty for her since i work for her since and then meet my husband and we got now own kids

    and what more evidnce i could show as "sole responsibilty" for her..sorry if i bit top slow on this matter i just really to clear up my mind before we apply. no ppoint to apply and on the end being refuse because we dont know the matter

    please any advice will be great help


  15. #15
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    sory to interupt Sir Joe. Im also bit of situation here have a daughter from previous relationship and wnt to bring her and apply togther with me spouse visa,,soon i got no idea to where is her father now .and im not married to him before i meet my english husband..the fathers name of my daugther dont appear on her BC as well. do you think embasy wil ask more evedence on that..i got no contact of him since i give birth of my daughter since last 2003 now she is 5 years old..
    not a problem with my 2 other kids from my english husband as i can apply ther passort right away..yes?
    am just bit awkward to my child from pervious relationshi but i assure i have all my responsibilty for her since i work for her since and then meet my husband and we got now own kids

    and what more evidnce i could show as "sole responsibilty" for her..sorry if i bit top slow on this matter i just really to clear up my mind before we apply. no ppoint to apply and on the end being refuse because we dont know the matter

    please any advice will be great help
    if the fathers name is not on the birth cert then you have little to worry about, just mention that you have had no contact with the father since the birth and you don't know where the father is.anyway Under the Family Code, an illegitimate child is under the sole parental authority of the mother.

    as i've mentioned school bills, medical bills, clothes,,,etc to show you financially support the child and also you make decision that effects her life. letter from school etc..i don't know, do you know someone who has some authority p;olice officer, manager etc who can confirm you provide financially and make decisionds that effect her life, this probably doesnt apply as much to you, as the father is not mentioned on the birth cert, but even still minimise any risks of refusal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    if the fathers name is not on the birth cert then you have little to worry about, just mention that you have had no contact with the father since the birth and you don't know where the father is.anyway Under the Family Code, an illegitimate child is under the sole parental authority of the mother.

    as i've mentioned school bills, medical bills, clothes,,,etc to show you financially support the child and also you make decision that effects her life. letter from school etc..i don't know, do you know someone who has some authority p;olice officer, manager etc who can confirm you provide financially and make decisionds that effect her life, this probably doesnt apply as much to you, as the father is not mentioned on the birth cert, but even still minimise any risks of refusal.
    ty for the soon reply Sir joie but she not yet to school..either medical Thanks god she never been to hospital yet..what more finacial evedince i ciould show.,.my english husband supiort us all of course her and our 2 kids


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    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...df?view=Binary

    this will give you a better idea.

    mention that your husband supports his stepchild, by sending you money which supports you all, you'll be providing remit receipts anyway ?

    its not easy to show you have 'sole responsibility' sometimes.. as you can see !


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    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    SET7.8 What is sole responsibility?

    A sponsoring parent (see SET7.2) must be able to show that he/she has been solely responsible for exercising parental care over the child for a substantial period.

    If the sponsoring parent and child are separated, the child will normally be
    expected to have been in the care of the sponsoring parent's relatives rather than the relatives of the other parent. An application should normally be refused if the child has been in the care of the other parent's relatives and the other parent lives nearby and takes an active interest in the child's welfare.

    The following factors should be considered in assessing sole responsibility:

    * Are the parents married / in a civil partnership?
    * If the parents' marriage / civil partnership is dissolved, which parent was awarded legal custody, which includes assumption of responsibility for the child?
    * Where there is a custody order the ECO should take care to ensure that the issue of a settlement entry clearance to the child will not contravene the terms of the custody order. Annex 1 contains a list of those countries whose custody orders can be recognised as valid in UK.
    * Does the marriage / civil partnership subsist, but the parents do not live together?
    * If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, how long has the sponsoring parent been separated from the child?
    * If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, what were the arrangements for the care of the child before and after the sponsoring parent migrated?
    * If the sponsoring parent migrated to the UK, what has been/what is the sponsoring parent's relationship with the child?
    * Has the sponsoring parent consistently supported the child, either by:
    direct personal care ; or by regular and substantial financial remittances?
    * By whom, and in what proportions, is the cost of the child's maintenance borne?
    * Who takes the important decisions about the child's upbringing, for example where the child lives, the choice of school, religious practice etc


    how about a letter from your local preist ? stating that you decide on your childs religious practice ?

    this will put you to sleep
    http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKIAT/2006/00049.html


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    my asawa is on her way to embassy now with letter from ex husband saying he has given full responsibilty of children to my wife with his address and fone number . a letter from his partner stating when there relationship began . bills from school and letter from principal stating my wife is only one who pays and attends parents evenings and school funtions hope this will work


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    please can someone tell me were you can speak to eco axa building or embassy at mckinley


  21. #21
    Respected Member aphrodite78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...df?view=Binary

    this will give you a better idea.

    mention that your husband supports his stepchild, by sending you money which supports you all, you'll be providing remit receipts anyway ?

    its not easy to show you have 'sole responsibility' sometimes.. as you can see !
    i think is a very good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    my asawa is on her way to embassy now with letter from ex husband saying he has given full responsibilty of children to my wife with his address and fone number . a letter from his partner stating when there relationship began . bills from school and letter from principal stating my wife is only one who pays and attends parents evenings and school funtions hope this will work
    i hope they do look at it because it seems silly not to please let us know how did she get on


    Quote Originally Posted by mmsjr6 View Post
    please can someone tell me were you can speak to eco axa building or embassy at mckinley
    when i was interviewed by the eco i didn't know who he was until i spoke to someone and said that was his name. then my furious ex husband insisted that he speaks with the highest eco but then the eco who interviewed and denied me turned up and we managed to persuade him that we will give him the docs that would prove that i didn't mislead them with the info i gave them (it's a really long story) but like what i said if you could prove it then go for it, insist keep on insisting don't give up, because if your case go on appeal and in the tribunal it could take ages and trust me you wouldn't want that. you also try to call them and just kindly ask them that your wife should be seen and your evidence to be considered because i remember my solicitor here in the uk who handled my case did the constant follow up and demanded that she speaks to the highest eco and voila they reconsidered my papers and overturned the decision. but just be careful not to overdo it but be very very nice though sometimes they are not i am sure it will pay off. keep us posted.
    "Success is not about how much money you have; it's about the choices you can make in life"


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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...df?view=Binary

    this will give you a better idea.

    mention that your husband supports his stepchild, by sending you money which supports you all, you'll be providing remit receipts anyway ?

    its not easy to show you have 'sole responsibility' sometimes.. as you can see !
    again ty for the reply Sir.. do i need to write also my leter of support for her as the mother..though not a problem with our 2 kids from my ebglish husband.. correct me if am wrong..
    and yes i got all the recipt here shping, bills, monegram etc..shows that he fully support us..


  23. #23
    Moderator joebloggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    again ty for the reply Sir.. do i need to write also my leter of support for her as the mother..though not a problem with our 2 kids from my ebglish husband.. correct me if am wrong..
    and yes i got all the recipt here shping, bills, monegram etc..shows that he fully support us..
    yes as your husband is supporting you both, and dont forget to mention that your children have never been apart ( i take it they haven't) ?? in your letter of support, you shouldn't have a problem then

    and dont forget to show your home will not be overcrowded ! with 5 of your living there ..


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    Quote Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post
    yes as your husband is supporting you both, and dont forget to mention that your children have never been apart ( i take it they haven't) ?? in your letter of support, you shouldn't have a problem then

    and dont forget to show your home will not be overcrowded ! with 5 of your living there ..
    yes they havent since

    what do you mean not overcrowding..sadly he still renting for the moment of a small room on a shared house , confuse if this will do as you see were going to aply or he must find a much bigger house/room... for us all prorior for our aplication


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    Respected Member IainBusby's Avatar
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    what do you mean not overcrowding..sadly he still renting for the moment of a small room on a shared house , confuse if this will do as you see were going to aply or he must find a much bigger house/room... for us all prorior for our aplication[/QUOTE]

    Reading your earlier post I get the impression that you are talking abou a total of 3 children in all. I don't how you will get on with regard to the 2 children who will qualify for British passports, but I think that if you apply for a visa to bring the other child to the UK with you, it's likely that you will be refused, unless your husband can provide suitable accomodation for you all. A small room in a shared house maybe acceptable for your husband and yourself, but the ECO is likely to say that it is not suitable to house children as well.

    Iain.


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    Quote Originally Posted by IainBusby View Post
    what do you mean not overcrowding..sadly he still renting for the moment of a small room on a shared house , confuse if this will do as you see were going to aply or he must find a much bigger house/room... for us all prorior for our aplication
    Reading your earlier post I get the impression that you are talking abou a total of 3 children in all. I don't how you will get on with regard to the 2 children who will qualify for British passports, but I think that if you apply for a visa to bring the other child to the UK with you, it's likely that you will be refused, unless your husband can provide suitable accomodation for you all. A small room in a shared house maybe acceptable for your husband and yourself, but the ECO is likely to say that it is not suitable to house children as well.

    Iain.[/QUOTE]

    yeah ty very much for the advice or he might be looking and starting to find a new bigger room that will suit us all..i hope so which we need for us to us to show to ECO
    refuse what do you mean my visa ? or my other kids visa..


  27. #27
    Respected Member Bluebirdjones's Avatar
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    Ross

    Iain is correct.

    I noticed this earlier & thought it strange.

    If it's just you who is applying, then a room in a shared house might, just might,
    be acceptable to the ECO.

    HOWEVER.... if you are bringing the children..... it will NOT be acceptable.

    The ECO will be looking for suitable accomodation.... meaning an least a bedroom
    for the children (maybe 2 bedrooms depending on age), and a bedroom for you
    and your husband.
    Also, I would have thought, non-shared bathroom & kitchen.

    Moving to a BIGGER room is NOT the solution.

    You need to address this BEFORE submitting your spouse visa application.
    Otherwise it is doomed to failure.
    No man is an island, but Barry is


  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdjones View Post
    Iain is correct.

    I noticed this earlier & thought it strange.

    If it's just you who is applying, then a room in a shared house might, just might,
    be acceptable to the ECO.

    HOWEVER.... if you are bringing the children..... it will NOT be acceptable.

    The ECO will be looking for suitable accomodation.... meaning an least a bedroom
    for the children (maybe 2 bedrooms depending on age), and a bedroom for you
    and your husband.
    Also, I would have thought, non-shared bathroom & kitchen.

    Moving to a BIGGER room is NOT the solution.

    You need to address this BEFORE submitting your spouse visa application.
    Otherwise it is doomed to failure.
    thats is why am here for you all and ask some advices and dont discouarge if i apply for visa but anyway thanks for the brave reply.. it help us to think more on this matter and prevent of the risk for refusal.. my kids are ages 6, 3 and 2..do you think thy need separate room for us
    for the moment when the time we will lodge our application would it should be alright that he will have a suitable room for us all i hope..
    any more advice would be really great

    Thanks


  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdjones View Post
    Iain is correct.

    I noticed this earlier & thought it strange.

    If it's just you who is applying, then a room in a shared house might, just might,
    be acceptable to the ECO.

    HOWEVER.... if you are bringing the children..... it will NOT be acceptable.

    The ECO will be looking for suitable accomodation.... meaning an least a bedroom
    for the children (maybe 2 bedrooms depending on age), and a bedroom for you
    and your husband.
    Also, I would have thought, non-shared bathroom & kitchen.

    Moving to a BIGGER room is NOT the solution.

    You need to address this BEFORE submitting your spouse visa application.
    Otherwise it is doomed to failure.
    Moving to a BIGGER room is NOT the solution." kindly ellaborate what you mean on this..? we will need bigger room for us to suit my husband, me and ous kids right?


  30. #30
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    Brave ?

    There's nothing brave about it .....

    ..... I'm merely stating my honest opinion.


    No-one likes to see a family living apart.... so the advice I'm giving is for your benefit (not mine),
    to be successful in your application, and not suffer the heartbreak of a refusal.
    I am NOT discouraging you ..... merely pointing out where u are likely to experience problems.

    so, YES .... the ECO will expect to see accomodation of a type that includes 2 bedrooms,
    one for the children, and one for you.
    Sharing facilities (kitchen / bathroom) is also likely to attract the (wrong) attentions of the ECO,
    so you also need to address that.
    No man is an island, but Barry is


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