Hillsborough, when will there be justice ?

[johncar54]

Have I missed it?

I have not seen anywhere that the people (fans) who pushed forward, and with their combined body weight killed the fans in front, have been sought, found and prosecuted.

[bigmarco]

I think you're probably a lone wolf on this one John.

I think there's enough been said about the neglect of the Police on duty that day, even in the aftermath people died on the pitch who could well have been resuscitated had there been the better emergency response in operation.

The also shocking uncovering of 116 Police statements being changed to remove unfavourable comments about South Yorkshire Police is an absolute disgrace.

The fact that you can suggest that someone at the back of a crowd could be charged with what was happening in the front is probably the same sort of attitude that resulted in so many people dying on the day. The Police quite clearly stood there doing nothing allowing this disaster to happen in front of them.

[johncar54]

But Bigmarco if the fans had not pushed forward, then there would have been no fatalities or injuries.

I accept that the facts of what actually happened will not be popular, but it was not the police, nor even the management, who after all were responsible for how the safety and emergency back up of the ground was organised, who caused the deaths. It was the fans.

Had there been no irresponsible fans, there would have been no fatalities.

As for "The also shocking uncovering of 116 Police statements being changed to remove unfavourable comments about South Yorkshire Police is an absolute disgrace."
That had nothing to do with what actually caused the tradigy but the subsequent investigation

[Steve.r]

But Bigmarco if the fans had not pushed forward, then there would have been no fatalities or injuries.

I accept that the facts of what actually happened will not be popular, but it was not the police, nor even the management, who after all were responsible for how the safety and emergency back up of the ground was organised, who caused the deaths. It was the fans.

Had there been no irresponsible fans, there would have been no fatalities.
To be quite honest John, I have never heard such rubbish. Nothing will bring the dead back, and you want a witch hunt for the innocent people who just wanted to see a game of football that day. How ridiculous :doh

[KeithD]

Typical police comment. :NoNo: Even after all of these years, and the additional evidence available, they still try to protect themselves. :action-smiley-081:

It was the authorities that allowed the pens to overload, resulting in the deaths. It is as simple as that. People had to keep moving forward in order to try to make room for those being allowed in the back. At no time did the authorities redirect the crowd, which is what they should have done, as other pens remained only partially full.

[Terpe]

Anyone who has ever been in a large crowd surging forward will understand the dynamics......there is no way any individual has any control....

[les_taxi]

This will be a controversial thread!

Here is my take on it. I do believe that the fans (some of them) rushed forward and compounded the problem. Crowds used to do that at games. I remember being a bit crushed at the 1983 FA cup final at Wembley.

To say the crowd played no part is .......s, it's just the 'right thing to do' to be PC about it all.

Now I am not bringing any rivalry in here at all.

I love the City of Liverpool, love the 'Crack', the pubs, Sefton Park, bombed out church, everything about the place.

Love having fun with the accent. Stayed over in Liverpool maybe 20 times and seen more fights in Harrogate than Liverpool.

The actual incident itself was a terrible disaster, as was Bradford City fire, Ibrox, Munich etc.

Do I blame the police? No, not at all. In those days their main task was trying to keep the peace between warring fans.

Did any of them even imagine the horrors they were going to face that day.

No doubt some of them .... themselves and ran off, panicked,made the wrong choice etc

Subsequently they have lied and that is wrong. No one would want to admit they did the wrong thing and it cost someone's life.

The whole thing could have been prevented - in hindsight - so could the Bradford fire, Munich etc

My view is did anyone plan that to happen? Did anyone wish people dead? The answer is of course no :NoNo:

It was an awful tragedy, beyond rivalries and decency and we have learnt from it.

Maybe you wont like what's coming next but this all looks now to be heading to compensation!

I don't know about any of you, but if it had been my child in that, no amount of money would have made up for it, I would not want the money.

I would like to be proved wrong in that if anyone receives money through the loss of a child that they pay it back to a charity that saves kids lives - let's see.

[bigmarco]

I don't think J96 is anything to do with money Les. I think there's already about 15 to 20 million been raised.

About 40 of those who died could have been saved according to the enquiry.

Lets not forget it was Plod who ordered the gates to be opened to relieve pressure outside.

I've spent the last 20+ years reading about the Metropolitan Police's institutional racism in dealing with the murder of Stephen Lawrence. The entire Metropolitan Police has been hung out to dry by successive governments to appease one family. The MET never killed Stephen they just botched up the investigation and one or two officers acted inappropriately.

In Hillsborough we have a situation where the Police totally messed up crowd safety control and by their actions placed people in danger and then conspired after the event to change their statements.

Justice for the 96.

[les_taxi]

In Hillsborough we have a situation where the Police totally messed up crowd safety control and by their actions placed people in danger and then conspired after the event to change their statements.

Justice for the 96

Still think we should move on, lessons learnt and hopefully something like this will never happen again.

[johncar54]

And of course it is better to make ‘the police’ responsible because they have a bottomless money pit. But of course it is not the police, as they have no money, it’s the public purse, which also has no money, so it’s me and you the taxpayer who will pick up the bills for the enquiry cost, the lawyers (who will make a fortune) and the compensation. The DWP or whoever might just as well pay up now

[les_taxi]

I think we all feel total sympathy for all the Victims and their relatives, but is this going to go on forever.

Didn't want to mention it but the Heysel Stadium tragedy does not seem to receive the same attention. Do we see the Italians banging on about their loss of lives caused by Liverpool fans?

[KeithD]

:Erm: Heysel was totally different. The ground was already listed as dangerous, and EUFA should never have held a match at the ground. The responsibility fell on UEFA, but they never accepted the findings, they preferred to blame the fans, the same as the police at Hillsborough. Also Belgian police for ignoring the fans when they started fighting, and just left them to it. Both sets of fan were also partly to blame. The Belgian judge in charge of the enquiry found all parties guilty, and had the police captain charged with manslaughter. EUFA didn't want to ban English clubs, that idea and pressure came from Thatcher.

[les_taxi]

The blame was laid on the Liverpool fans due them charging towards the Italians, but at the end of the day lives were lost and conveniently airbrushed by Liverpool fans.

All I'm saying is it's time to move on.

Still think it's all about compensation claims to come.

[KeithD]

The blame was laid on the Liverpool fans due them charging towards the Italians, but at the end of the day lives were lost and conveniently airbrushed by Liverpool fans.


So the Belgian high court judge was a Liverpool fan then? :doh

"After an 18-month investigation, the dossier of top Belgian judge Marina Coppieters was finally published. It concluded that blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities. Several top officials were incriminated by some of the dossier’s findings, including police captain Johan Mahieu, who had been in charge of security on 29 May 1985 and was now charged with involuntary manslaughter."

[les_taxi]

Sorry Keith my recollection at the time was the Liverpool fans charged towards the Juve fans, a wall collapsed etc etc

If I have got that wrong I will apologise, I will google it.

[les_taxi]

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

Fans had been chanting, waving flags and letting off fireworks, but the atmosphere became more violent and a thin line of police was unable to prevent a contingent of Liverpool followers from stampeding towards rival fans.

A retaining wall separating the Liverpool followers from Juventus supporters in sector 'Z' collapsed under the pressure and many were crushed or trampled when panicking Juventus fans tried to escape.

Obviously the judge had to do his pc work on this.

All I'm saying is no one set out to kill those Juve fans - no one set out to kill Hillsborough fans, but people want to vilify the police and yet the Liverpool supporters who got charged - basically got let off.

Everyone should move on -we have learnt a lot from the tragic events.

[gWaPito]

So the Belgian high court judge was a Liverpool fan then? :doh

"After an 18-month investigation, the dossier of top Belgian judge Marina Coppieters was finally published. It concluded that blame should not rest solely with the English fans, and that some culpability lay with the police and authorities. Several top officials were incriminated by some of the dossier’s findings, including police captain Johan Mahieu, who had been in charge of security on 29 May 1985 and was now charged with involuntary manslaughter."

Thirteen police officers facing charges over Hillsborough disaster from manslaughter to misconduct in a public office

The commission said 11 of these had already been interviewed under caution relating to a range of offences including manslaughter as well as misconduct in a public office and perverting the course of justice.

Labour MP Derek Twigg told Mr Cameron it was a "scandal" that some officers were refusing to co-operate with the inquests and urged him to step in.

Mr Twigg, MP for Halton, had said at Prime Minister's Questions: "The 25th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is less than three weeks away and the fresh inquests are due to start.
"Do you agree it is a scandal some police officers who were on duty on the day of the disaster are refusing to co-operate with the investigation and what will you do to prevent such a situation from happening again?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hillsborough-disaster-police-officers-face-3292965

Looks like we could do with that Belgian Judge over here. The filth are sticking together over this like they do with most things :cwm23: