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View Full Version : Shambles that just beggars belief. NHS 111 Service



Dedworth
30th July 2013, 09:18
Once again, we are left rubbing our eyes in disbelief at the utter shambles that passes for the administration of a public service.

The NHS 111 service, which answers non-emergency calls from the public, is close to collapse after its main provider pulled out.

NHS Direct, which originally won 11 of the 46 contracts to provide the service around the country, has abandoned them, saying the deals were ‘financially unsustainable’.

The 111 service has been a disaster from the start. It is staffed by people who, sometimes after as little as two weeks of training, use a computer system to assess how unwell callers are and decide whether to issue advice over the phone, call a nurse or send for an ambulance.

The call centres are typically staffed by 60 unqualified workers and up to 15 nurses.

Staff numbers decline dramatically during night and weekend shifts, leaving unqualified workers to make snap decisions about people who may be critically ill. Some managers warn that staff shortages make the service unsafe at weekends.

An undercover investigation by Channel 4’s Despatches, screened last night, found that patients can wait hours to speak to a nurse. With too few people staffing the phones, the programme’s undercover journalists were filmed being given medical advice by workers who were not clinicians.

Such is the chaos that ambulances are dispatched to deal with hangovers, coughs, colds and even cat scratches.

Deplorable as all this is, the knock-on effect on hospital accident and emergency departments has been even more catastrophic.

With calls to the 111 phone lines going unanswered, and with patients deeply reluctant to seek medical advice from non-medical call-centre staff, such people are inundating A&E departments as their first port of call.

The result, according to some doctors, is that A&E departments have turned into ‘war zones’. Call this a professional health service? The words knees-up, organise and brewery come to mind.

Yet of course the response of officialdom is robotic complacency.

Thus, Dame Barbara Hakin, NHS England’s deputy chief executive, declared: ‘Over 90 per cent of NHS 111 calls are now answered in under a minute and patients are rating the service highly.’

You do have to wonder just what it would take for someone like this to express the only possible decent reaction – horror at a breakdown of the most basic standards of professionalism and care for the sick, not to mention personal responsibility for presiding over such a shambles.

In any event, you may well also wonder about this proliferation of organisations such as NHS Direct and NHS 111. Whatever happened to the notion that – outside emergencies – if you needed medical advice or treatment you went to your GP? The answer to that question explains much of what has gone wrong with NHS.

In the late Nineties, NHS Direct was set up to deliver 24-hour medical advice on the phone by nurses and others, because people found it increasingly difficult to get to see a GP. Its successor service, NHS 111, which started last April was supposed to be more efficient and better connected to the rest of the health system.

From the start, however, this was bedevilled by problems.

In March, the British Medical Association called for it to be delayed, saying it was badly worked out, confused and would put patients at risk.

By May, the Royal College of General Practitioners said patients had already lost confidence in the system.

The real cause of the problem, however, is the reason these services were deemed necessary in the first place.

That was because GPs were no longer prepared to deliver patient care seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Some of the world’s finest doctors work in the NHS but the brutal fact is that many got greedy and selfish, and destroyed the ethic of care at the heart of the NHS.

The rot set in under the last Labour government, when the GPs pulled off an outrageous deal in which their pay rocketed upwards to more than £100,000 a year while the hours they worked plummeted.

No longer recognising an unequivocal duty to their patients, they turned themselves into 9-to-5 workers.

We know that – shockingly – more patients die at weekends because of patchy medical care. Yet recently more than half of family doctors questioned in a survey said they wanted to charge patients up to £150 for an appointment because they were so stressed they faced ‘burnout’.

This eclipse of clinical conscience in turn has gone hand in hand with a general erosion of political accountability for the NHS, with ministers out-sourcing the day-to-day running to a series of quangos.

The ostensible reason was to make the service more responsive to the public by loosening Whitehall’s controlling strings. In fact, this enabled ministers to wash their hands of responsibility if things went wrong.

The outcome was an ever-more monstrous bureaucracy in which ‘out-sourcing’ became an epidemic disease. Ministers out-sourced policy to quangocrats. GPs out-sourced out-of-hours care to NHS Direct, which out-sourced it in turn to NHS 111.

Doctors out-sourced clinical care to nurses. Nurses out-sourced humanity and compassion to the cleaning staff. And blame was even out-sourced from human beings to machines.

Apparently, the dispatch by NHS 111 of ambulances to deal with trivial complaints is the fault of something called the ‘risk-averse computer’, which sends out ambulances unnecessarily because of the fear of missing something. Computers with over-cautious dispositions! Who knew?

The result is now laid out for all to see – a mad NHS merry-go-round in which the sick are fobbed off with poor advice or left hanging on the phone for hours while ambulances are dispatched to deal with scratches from the household pet and A&E departments descend into bedlam.

And, meanwhile, knighthoods and damehoods are handed out faster than aspirin prescriptions to the bureaucrats presiding over this mess, who emerge from beneath their otherwise impenetrable shield of incomprehensible management-speak to intone unctuous pieties about everything being for the best in the NHS, the best of all possible healthcare systems.

The deeper problem behind the disaster of NHS 111 lies, in fact, with the NHS itself.

It has been obvious for years now that it is simply unable to cope with the demands being made of it.

Despite being ring-fenced and having money poured into it, the NHS still does not have enough cash and never will be able to satisfy the unstoppable and ever-expanding demand.

The idea of a centralised health care system purporting to provide out of direct taxation the same excellent level of health care for everyone free at the point of use is now demonstrably unsustainable.

On the other hand, anyone who receives treatment in France, Germany or other European countries where health care is based on social insurance systems sees that standards there are infinitely superior.

Yet British politicians are terrified of challenging the country’s most sacred – but tottering – cow.

Accordingly, they continue to propagate the myth that the NHS represents Britain’s sanctified temple of compassion and conscience.

And to insulate themselves from the lethal fallout as this temple crumbles, they have created a pyramid of out-sourcing and targets and ‘providers’ out-sourcing targets to other ‘providers’ – in which ultimately no-one takes responsibility for sending patient care down the sluice.

The 111 debacle is but a symptom of a deeper sickness – a health service in which patients are being sacrificed to an idea whose time has gone.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2381028/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Shambles-just-beggars-belief-The-111-service-disaster-start.html#ixzz2aVyMikTp

The NHS - envy of the world :NoNo:

joebloggs
30th July 2013, 10:52
if you were 'critically ill.' you would not be phoning someone up :doh you would be off to A&E. that's if your local hospital still has one, maybe thats why they are phoning, because they dont have a local A&E, the tories shut it down :doh

what do you expect, do it on the cheap, they are not even doctors there, like i said, if your that ill you need to phone someone up thru the night, get to A&E

Arthur Little
30th July 2013, 12:21
:icon_rolleyes: ... changed days!!

When my father suffered his first major heart attack during a visit to my house back in the autumn of 1977, I immediately dashed out to the nearest [working] :telephone: kiosk and called 999. Within minutes, a couple of paramedics arrived on our doorstep and, straightaway, he was whisked off to Perth Royal Infirmary.

Luckily, he recovered ... thanks to the prompt attention he received. However, I dread to think what might've been the outcome nowadays. :cwm25:

Dedworth
30th July 2013, 12:35
if you were 'critically ill.' you would not be phoning someone up :doh you would be off to A&E. that's if your local hospital still has one, maybe thats why they are phoning, because they dont have a local A&E, the tories shut it down :doh

what do you expect, do it on the cheap, they are not even doctors there, like i said, if your that ill you need to phone someone up thru the night, get to A&E

Wrong again Joe - this all stems from Labour making it hugely financially attractive for GP's to earn vast sums not doing out of hours visits, whilst these same leech like doctors lined their own pockets setting up 2nd rate services supposedly providing cover.

NHS 111 is the succesor to NHS Direct set up by Labour in 1998

There is a lot more in my thread Labours Day of Shame over the NHS

http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/47568-Labour-s-day-of-shame-over-the-NHS?highlight=jeremy+hunt

joebloggs
30th July 2013, 13:15
dedworth are you on call 24hrs a day? dentists are not, why should gp's be??
if your that ill that you need to see a GP at night time, what do you think the GP will do? send you to A&E :doh, if your that ill you need medical attention go to A&E :biggrin:

Shocking proof A&E closures cost lives: Death rate jumps more than a THIRD after department closes

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323141/Shocking-proof-Accident-Emergency-closures-cost-lives-Death-rate-jumps-THIRD-department-closes.html#ixzz2aWv1u6rQ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Shocking evidence shows hospital A&E closures cost lives - but will it affect Epsom and St Helier decisions?


http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/health/news/10420940.Shocking_evidence_shows_hospital_A_E_closures_cost_lives___but_will_it_affect_Epsom_and_St_Helier_decisions_/

Dedworth
30th July 2013, 14:26
The GP's should pull their fingers out, sort out shifts and rotas for night/weekend working within their own practices or at least club together with one down the road. This is how it always was done before Labour screwed it up

Doc Alan
30th July 2013, 15:54
How unfortunate that I can’t fully respond to this latest thread. For those who don’t know, I’m visiting my daughter in Switzerland tomorrow ( she’s engaged to be married ) ; also having worked in health services both in UK and Malaysia for 35 years ( not as a " leech-like " GP ) I feel I’m entitled to some time off, now I’m retired.



Other members may have noted my thoughts on the NHS ( Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish … as well as English ).


I am no politician and yet it worries me that politicians from all sides play party politics over the failures of the NHS. Despite this, a majority of the UK population seem to appreciate their treatment under the NHS, and Filipinos look on with envy at what we have. This week’s POSITIVE news ? Much improved survival for testicular cancer ( UK ), and the chance of a vaccine for dengue ( Philippines ) :xxgrinning--00xx3:.


It concerns me that the current English Health Minister has publicly stated " the buck stops with me " when he has been in post less than a year, and his " secret hospital visits " – certainly giving him publicity – amount to less time in practical experience than health care assistants have in training. He needn’t worry – he will move on in time for the next election.


How many of us remember the names of the 6 English Health Ministers during the Labour years ( 1997 – 2010 ), the 4 during Conservative years ( 1988 – 1997 ) or even the first during the Coalition year ? They don’t stay in post long enough to gain experience ; see through the policies which their advisers have suggested ; or listen to nurses, doctors and other health care professionals.


The ONLY Health Minister in recent times that I respect is Sam Galbraith, who just happened to be a brilliant doctor and neurosurgeon BEFORE becoming Scottish minister in the 1990’s. Why ? He knew what he was talking about from many YEARS of experience.


My threads and posts on health and health services mostly apply to the ENTIRE UK and the Philippines. I may not have all my facts right, and you may disagree with my opinions – but at least they’re based on experience. I’m sorry any further responses from me will now have to wait until my return from Switzerland.

As always, I wish ALL members good health !

joebloggs
30th July 2013, 20:48
The ONLY Health Minister in recent times that I respect is Sam Galbraith, who just happened to be a brilliant doctor and neurosurgeon BEFORE becoming Scottish minister in the 1990’s. Why ? He knew what he was talking about from many YEARS of experience.




:xxgrinning--00xx3: at least he was not clue-less

Dedworth
30th July 2013, 21:01
:xxgrinning--00xx3: at least he was not clue-less

Opposite to that other useless Scottish ex Defence, Health Minister etc Lord Reid of Group 4. Shouldn't knock him though he's done very nicely for a former communist

Terpe
30th July 2013, 21:10
.....My threads and posts on health and health services mostly apply to the ENTIRE UK and the Philippines. I may not have all my facts right, and you may disagree with my opinions – but at least they’re based on experience. I’m sorry any further responses from me will now have to wait until my return from Switzerland.

As always, I wish ALL members good health !

Alan, your posts are ALWAYS top class.
This forum is lucky to have such expertise. Thank you.

I wish you continued good health and a wonderful holiday

Dedworth
7th August 2013, 19:06
80 patients a day. 27 home visits. On call at night... The humbling diary of a GP from a very different age


When people speak of a doctor having a vocation, they could find no more shining example than Dr David Geddes-Brown, a GP working on the outskirts of York half a century ago.
In a moving tribute, his daughter has revealed the onerous surgery duties and mammoth workload of her father in 1965.
It would put today’s GPs, with their £100,000 salaries and the option to bow out of weekend and evening work, to shame

The recent NHS scandals — locum GPs and nurses drafted in to provide out-of-hours care, phones on the NHS 111 helpline left to ring unanswered, A&E wards overwhelmed with cases that would be better treated by a family doctor — would have had Dr Geddes-Brown and his ilk shaking their heads in disbelief.
The good doctor’s daily routine back in 1965 has come to light after his daughter, Leslie Geddes-Brown, 71, revealed his proud story in Country Life magazine.
She originally shared it with the public at the time, when she was working for the Northern Echo newspaper after having had the idea of asking him to write about an average day in his surgery in Fulford Road, a mile from the centre of York.
Dr Geddes-Brown obliged with his account of an astonishingly busy — but, to him, utterly routine — Wednesday in mid-February.

Up at 7.35am, he and his wife began their 20-minute breakfast at 8am. During which, he ‘read 16 hospital reports, several bills, about ten medical advertisements, one solicitor’s letter and a newspaper leader’.
Dr Geddes-Brown then got into his Rover 2000 and did his rounds — visiting 27 patients from 8.30am until 12.30pm. On his 15-mile round trip, he also treated a further four patients at a hospital clinic.
While he was away from home, his wife and the cleaning lady took 18 phone calls and had five personal visits from patients seeking appointments.
After a 15-minute lunch, Dr Geddes-Brown then did afternoon surgery, from 1pm to 3pm and from 5pm to 6.30pm, aiming to see a patient every five minutes.
That afternoon, he saw a total of 48 patients, with his receptionist seeing another seven who didn’t need to see the doctor. Not a single one had to wait more than five minutes in the waiting room.
Between the two afternoon surgeries, the doctor saw seven last-minute patients before a swift cup of tea. And then, when he finally left surgery at 6.30pm — and after a quick glass of sherry — he was on call.
That evening, he went to one emergency patient three miles away and took three patient phone calls.
All in all, he did 11 hours of work that day, with 25 minutes off for meals, plus 13 hours on call. A total of 80 patients were seen — all without delay — and 66 phone calls taken.And this was his daily routine, day in, day out, week in, week out, for more than 30 years. On Thursdays, he had the afternoon off, and every third weekend he had what he described as the ‘utter bliss’ of no work from 6.30pm on Friday until 7.30am on Monday, when one of his partners in the practice covered his patients.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2385735/80-patients-day-27-home-visits-On-night--The-humbling-diary-GP-different-age.html#ixzz2bJ8fRCWl

joebloggs
7th August 2013, 20:53
visiting 27 patients from 8.30am until 12.30pm. On his 15-mile round trip, he also treated a further four patients at a hospital clinic.

so 4hrs / 27 is near 9 mins a patient, he had to drive there, and wait for them to come to the door , exam them all in 9 mins :laugher:

:laugher: dedworth it sounds like you think he was over worked, maybe that's why they got a change in their working conditions.:biggrin: so they can play golf in the afternoons

from the past to today ..

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20013164

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/battling-burnout/revealed-half-of-gps-at-high-risk-of-burnout/20003157.article

Dedworth
7th August 2013, 23:46
so 4hrs / 27 is near 9 mins a patient, he had to drive there, and wait for them to come to the door , exam them all in 9 mins :laugher:

:laugher: dedworth it sounds like you think he was over worked, maybe that's why they got a change in their working conditions.:biggrin: so they can play golf in the afternoons

from the past to today ..

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20013164

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/battling-burnout/revealed-half-of-gps-at-high-risk-of-burnout/20003157.article

Wasn't able to get into the figures today Joe - I'll see if I can get them run through the Cray Titan in the morning. I still think we'll find that most of today's GP's are laughing all the way to the bank :biggrin:

joebloggs
8th August 2013, 09:02
Wasn't able to get into the figures today Joe - I'll see if I can get them run through the Cray Titan in the morning. I still think we'll find that most of today's GP's are laughing all the way to the bank :biggrin:

when was the last time when you went to see a GP?

you really believe that a GP can go and visit and treat 88 patients in a day, look at their history and diagnose and treat them, your in :Rasp: land dedworth :biggrin:

you seem to have a problem with GP's and doctors, i suppose if you spent 5yrs at uni, 2 yrs doing NHS foundation training and 3yrs training to be a GP or in the case of surgeons 7yrs training and the responsibility that goes with the job, you should be working for what?? what would you say is a fair wage, no NHS GP gets paid £100,000 a yr, find me a link where it says they do :icon_lol:

Dedworth
8th August 2013, 09:14
I agree they should be well rewarded Joe but there do seem to be some very large numbers floating around :-

Pay in the NHS - Parliament
www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn04286.pdf‎
14 Oct 2010 - The basic consultant pay scale consists of eight pay points, ranging from £74,504 per year to £100,446pa. Consultants can earn additional ...


GP earnings and expenses are analysed each year by the NHS Information Centre using the
HMRC tax self-assessment database17. The average after-tax personal income of contractor
GPs on both PMS and GMS contracts in 2008/09 was £109,600pa. Practitioners on ‘local’
PMS contracts earned more on average (£116,900pa) than those on the ‘national’ GMS
(£103,900pa).

PS - I saw my GP for a 5 min appointment about 1 year ago - and again 2 weeks ago parking her Audi convertible at Waitrose :biggrin:

joebloggs
8th August 2013, 11:04
http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/hospital-doctors-pay-scales-for-20092010

they had a pay freeze for years,

so
Threshold 8, years completed as a consultant 19, £101,451

say he went to uni at 18, passed his med degree at 23, did 2 yrs foundation training, so he's now 25,

then did 3yrs training as a GP so he would be 28. so after 8yrs , he be 36 on £100k a yr.

or if they trained as a surgeon, thats 7yrs, so at 32 they would be a consultant,

so in 8yrs time at a minimum age of 40 he would be on £100k a yr.
thats if they passed every exam they had to take and got a ST place every yr( i'll go into that in another post!)

a lot of exams, a lot of money, a lot of stress and debts :biggrin:

Dedworth
8th August 2013, 11:24
http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/hospital-doctors-pay-scales-for-20092010

they had a pay freeze for years,

so
Threshold 8, years completed as a consultant 19, £101,451

say he went to uni at 18, passed his med degree at 23, did 2 yrs foundation training, so he's now 25,

then did 3yrs training as a GP so he would be 28. so after 8yrs , he be 36 on £100k a yr.

or if they trained as a surgeon, thats 7yrs, so at 32 they would be a consultant,

so in 8yrs time at a minimum age of 40 he would be on £100k a yr.
thats if they passed every exam they had to take and got a ST place every yr( i'll go into that in another post!)

a lot of exams, a lot of money, a lot of stress and debts :biggrin:

Joe I thought we were talking about GP's earnings and hours (my posts 11 & 15) which include official NHS figures ???????????

Your post is from a biased Docs blog type site only covering Hospital Docs/Consultants earnings and conveniently fails to reveal their lucrative private earnings

joebloggs
8th August 2013, 13:17
dedworth, the real Shambles that just beggars belief is the number of doctors who have started specialist training (ST) to be consultants, for example to be a surgeon, 7yrs of training, your start at ST(1) upto ST(7) and there are a number who are stuck at ST4 or ST5 that cant find a ST(6) or ST(7) place, so after spending 4yrs or more training, they are going no further and are forced to switch training to another area like GP training, where you can actually finish your training :doh

I've heard of many cases of this happening :NoNo:

Dedworth
8th August 2013, 13:58
dedworth, the real Shambles that just beggars belief is the number of doctors who have started specialist training (ST) to be consultants, for example to be a surgeon, 7yrs of training, your start at ST(1) upto ST(7) and there are a number who are stuck at ST4 or ST5 that cant find a ST(6) or ST(7) place, so after spending 4yrs or more training, they are going no further and are forced to switch training to another area like GP training, where you can actually finish your training :doh

I've heard of many cases of this happening :NoNo:

Does this address the question of high GP pay, lower hours and not having to do home visits ?

I also understand that many GP's have formed themselves into little syndicates and companies who then earn lucrative money providing the outcall visits that were formerly carried out by their own surgeries :Erm:

joebloggs
9th August 2013, 07:45
Does this address the question of high GP pay, lower hours and not having to do home visits ?

I also understand that many GP's have formed themselves into little syndicates and companies who then earn lucrative money providing the outcall visits that were formerly carried out by their own surgeries :Erm:

high pay :icon_lol: what pay scale is acceptable to you dedworth ?
they do home visits :doh

you just said they dont do home visits or out of hours visits so how could they have been formerly carried out by their own surgeries :Erm:

Dedworth
9th August 2013, 09:01
high pay :icon_lol: what pay scale is acceptable to you dedworth ?
they do home visits :doh

you just said they dont do home visits or out of hours visits so how could they have been formerly carried out by their own surgeries :Erm:

Many do not do home visits or out of hours that is why it has been farmed out to the Doctors money making syndicates like the disgraceful operation detailed here

GP on Misconduct charges http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/47816-GP-on-Misconduct-charges?highlight=

In terms of pay they've been given obscene increases for less work (due to the contracts handed to them by Labours suckers). I wonder how the BMA would react if their pay had risen in line with that of nurses :-

Nurses Average Pay
1997 - £23,600
2010 - £29,000

NHS Consultants Average Pay
1997 - £60,000
2010 - £104,000

GP's Average Pay
1997 - £44,000
2010 - £104,000

More here Labours Day of Shame over the NHS http://filipinaroses.com/showthread.php/47568-Labour-s-day-of-shame-over-the-NHS?highlight=