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troubled
23rd May 2007, 04:59
One topic my unofficial fiancee avoids is that of religion, something I take extreemly seriously given that I could end up having children with this woman whom I love for her black sense of humour, kindness and enchanting uniquness.

She, like so many Phillipinas/os is a Catholic on the basis that she was raised a Catholic. Her mother became Iglesia Cristo, whatever that means, as a result of influence by her peers in Hong Kong where she works as a domestic helper. Her father, here in Pampanga, has become Iglesia Cristo because the mother converted him. I sometimes wonder if any of the family have given the matter of religion any personal, independent thought whatsoever or simply followed and listened to others.

The woman I love doesn't really have a strong opinion on any subject but I have learned to accept that you can't have everything in a woman and deep conversation may have to be left with friends, but that's ok.

I have a half brother in Hong Kong, and intelligent English man who is an extreemly devout born again Christian. He has a lovely family and God has worked for him, though he was aways a nice bloke and would have had a nice family anyway. However, he suffers a silent grief for our mother who passed away in 2001 as he fears her soul is burning in hell, the same can be said for our recently deceased grandmother.

He believes that anyone who does not share HIS idea of Christianity is doomed, and that includes all other types and sub versions of Christianity as well as all other differing religions. I have pointed out to him that Catholics, Muslims and Jews et al, all believe that THEY are right and their religion is 'the way', of course my mother in law to be believes her way is the way and so on and so fourth.

In my 33 years I have had many friends of differing religions and I have tried each one but the whole idea of religion never sat comfortably with me. Religion frightens me silly, especially the damage it has done, and I'm not talking about war and everything, that's a common as muck criticism that doesn't require much thinking but more the psychological damage it does to people, especially children.

Religion seems to be a pre-requisite for good and it is not at all. The word 'athiest' has been unfairly stigmatized as tantamount to evil and religion as a whole is something you are not allowed to question or say anything bad about - why not? because you're just not!

If I have children I want them to think for themselves and have their own opinions of the world, I don't want them living in fear of hell for doing something wrong because somebody has told them that, somebody who may not realise they are guilty of child abuse by saying such nonsense, something I think should be a punishable offence as it has messed up many peoples lives, people who were unfortunate enough to be born into a neo-religious family.

As Richard Dawkins rightfully pointed out in his book, The God Delusion - there is no such thing as a Catholic child, Muslim, Hindu or Christian child - only a child of Catholic parents, because a child is far too young to have an opinion on the world, let alone to consent to having it's genitalia mutilated. Circumcision is something which surely is an overruling insult to God's design if that's what you choose to believe, not to mention an incredibly traumatic, painful, psychologically damaging, physically damaging, un-necessary and potentailly very dangerous and extreemly stupid thing to do to a baby. There are medical arguments for circumcision but they are weak and it is gradually being phased out in western countries as more and more evidence supports my above statement - 'evidence' being that thing which those of strong religious faith need none.

It would be my worst nightmare if a scenario arose where I was forbidden by the mother/father in law to see my son/daughter because of my religious views. My girlfriend has always done as they wish - what if they wished to 'protect' their grandchild from their fathers views - which must surely be the work of the devil.

I would not enforce my ideas on my children, merely protect them from unfair influence so they don't have to have the same confusion and guilt I once had in my youth.

A final note, I do not even consider myself an athiest or an agnostic. I am open to the idea that there is some kind of next level which may be the very place we came from before we were born, but I'm damned if I'm going to let any human being tell me what to do, how to live, what to read and where to go on a Sunday, and I'm certainly not going to throw reason and scientific evidence out the window and devote my life to a fairytale, for I am a firm believer in truth and above all - good.

PS - I hope any religious members or indeed circumcised members of this wonderful forum have not recieved my post as any form of attack, far from it.

KeithD
23rd May 2007, 09:22
Religion - A reason for adults to have an invisible friend, and not have to see a psychiatrist :xxgrinning--00xx3:

joebloggs
23rd May 2007, 10:57
of course my wife is a catholic,
now me , went to a church of england school, my dad was catholic, my mother a jehovah witness, she use to drag us there when we were kids. :NoNo: oh iam not any religion :Hellooo:

religion is not a problem, it only is if you make it one, iam not bothered if me kids are what ever as long as they are happy, and if me wife wants to try to convert them, good luck to her :D , if their anything like me, they will see religion has caused more problems than its solved.

but i can see a fight on with my wife, as i caught her feeding our little 6 month old son a bit of rice soaked in chicken noddle soup :yikes: ... as a strict veggy this is going to cause more :xxsport-smiley-002: than the religion will :NoNo:

KeithD
23rd May 2007, 11:27
You force a 6 month old to be a veggie, and yet needs fish & meat protein molecules to grow properly. How about feeding her/him anything, and let the child have a choice when it understands. That's worse than having a baby baptised with out it's permission, as you can effect it's long term health.

joebloggs
23rd May 2007, 12:09
:icon_lol:

err you mean my wife FORCES him to drink powdered milk !! to keep him alive, he dont have any say in what he eats or drinks.
and what scientifc medical studies show you need to eat meat and fish ? , those sponsored by the food industry.

scouser keith It is now widely recognised by bodies such as the British Medical Association, that a vegetarian diet can provide all the nutrients needed for growing infants. but unlike some i'll not force him into anything. you can even bring your baby up a vegan,,,

and the veggie society was formed in the great city of manchester in 1847, so wheres all the veggies dying from not eating meat, fish or eggs :8_1_215:

ive not eaten meat, fish or eggs for more than 25 years, maybe i should be dead :gost: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

KeithD
23rd May 2007, 12:38
ive not eaten meat, fish or eggs for more than 25 years, maybe i should be dead :gost: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
...and look at the way you turned out :yikes:

I bet you've had 'meat' in the last 25 years :xxgrinning--00xx3: ......most vaccines are made in eggs (the flu one is made in Liverpool :) ), a lot of medication involves animal protein molecules :D ....and Mars Bars :omg:

joebloggs
23rd May 2007, 13:13
...and look at the way you turned out :yikes:

I bet you've had 'meat' in the last 25 years :xxgrinning--00xx3: ......most vaccines are made in eggs (the flu one is made in Liverpool :) ), a lot of medication involves animal protein molecules :D ....and Mars Bars :omg:

you know i've think i've turned out pretty good, still here, all the :censored: i've seen , i should hve turned out to be a typical scouser, a drug addict or alcoholic :NoNo: , but i've not touched any of them :xxgrinning--00xx3:

:D , but nope, i'm not a man-eater like you :D , who likes his meat and 2 veg :icon_lol:

dont take much medicine, yes i've caught a cold from them meat eaters at home, first time in many years, only days off i've had in the last 5 years was from hurting my back, and from a drink in pinoyland that near killed me, i should have known better, was cherry flavour with like black jelly balls in the bottom :vomit-smiley-011:

and when you've taken the medicine many times your worse off because of the side effects from taking them, or they medicine just dont work ,,:doh

troubled
23rd May 2007, 15:25
Hmm, well first thing I notice the Fillipino's are rather silent on this one.

As fiercely anti religion I am, I wouldn't be too bothered about a baptism, after all it's just a splash of water and a few silly words which the baby can make of it what it wants when it is old enough to comprehend.

As for vegetarianism, I despise the way we treat animals and I hate the very principal of a balut in that the poor chick hasn't even had a chance to break out and see the world - however, you only have to look at our teeth to see that we are by, by nature, omnivores.

Vegetarianism is a product of modern morals that has only come about as a result of the inhumane way in which animals are slaughtered.

I personally think vegetarianism is something that must be personal choice and as somebody who has a vehement hatred of McDonalds, KFC etc... I would gladly show my kids some of those PETA videos on YouTube, when of course the child was old enough, the right age being debatable I suppose, I wouldn't want he/she to suffer endless nightmares.

I am not a vegetarian myself but I do like Morrissey.

Anyway, back on topic! Where's the Pinoys?

joebloggs
23rd May 2007, 15:51
I am not a vegetarian myself but I do like Morrissey. :xxgrinning--00xx3:
with tomato sauce :D

of course morrissey is a manc, :D even better hes from Salford :D :D

one of the reasons why i'm a veggy,

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated ... I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man." - except scousers :D

Mahatma Gandhi

what little chance has the animal kingdom, when mankind still kills its own :cwm24:

ive seen animal curelty here, but in the philippines its was so :NoNo: :cwm24: , the zoo on the hill side, forgot the name of the place, they had a grizzly bear, and it was pacing around its small cage, they had lions and tigers in small cages, even in the mall, i went to a petshop, inside there was animals that had died and still on display, next door to my wife, the guy kept a dog in a really small cage to prevent anyone stealing the car, dogs with their voice box cut, so the barking wouldnt wake the owner,,, animals have few if any right in pinoyland :NoNo: :cwm24:

my wife still pushes my dog at home around, something i've warned her about :D after 12yrs its the dogs home more than hers :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

troubled
23rd May 2007, 15:58
No ones talkig about religion so I may as well derail the topic further by asking:

A: Can I change pesos into Thai baht in Bangkok?

B: If the character Peter Parker in the Spiderman movies works as a moped courier then how the ...... could he afford to have such an impressive costume (plus spares) designed and manafactured? ..Presumably from ice skate suit quality lycra.

KeithD
23rd May 2007, 16:37
Morrissey is gay! Same as most Mancs....seems to be a hobby :action-smiley-081: :xxgrinning--00xx3:

PS. Reading your posts here....I'd stick with the username 'Troubled' :icon_lol:

joebloggs
23rd May 2007, 16:58
Morrissey is gay! Same as most Mancs....seems to be a hobby :action-smiley-081: :xxgrinning--00xx3:

PS. Reading your posts here....I'd stick with the username 'Troubled' :icon_lol:

nah most mancs are not, when you goto canal street, its not manc's you meet, its your scouser bf's :action-smiley-081: , becuase you dont want other socusers to know what you get up to :thorsten_rammler:

as for the user name when you gonna give us a betting tip, one that dont come last :D

look in google for 'gay liverpool' - 'Merseyside is famous for the gay friendly city of Liverpool - perfect for a gay wedding' :D

KeithD
23rd May 2007, 19:14
All I can find is this? http://www.pinkuk.com/listings/clubs/Clublisting.asp?cid=30&town=Manchester

You want to be following the Win2Win site if you want extra income, plenty of profit this month, 12/1 winner yesterday on a free system, I give to members.

bornatbirth
23rd May 2007, 19:38
ur link didnt work when i tryed,so how am supposed to get rich?

bornatbirth
23rd May 2007, 20:33
ur link did work!,i meant that from ur title page the other pages dont work?

KeithD
24th May 2007, 10:03
Works for me!!



so how am supposed to get rich?

Lots of hard work, good understanding of maths & stats, and the willingness to take big financial hits when you start off.

joebloggs
24th May 2007, 10:48
Works for me!!


Lots of hard work, good understanding of maths & stats, and the willingness to take big financial hits when you start off.


i hate :cwm23: stats, did o'level at college, has the lowest pass rate of near all exams, standard deviation :yikes: :omg:

stats dont prove much, if i put your head in the oven keith, and your legs in the fridge, stats says your just fine :icon_lol: :doh

Peanutz
25th July 2007, 10:57
[quote=troubled;23647]No ones talkig about religion so I may as well derail the topic further by asking:

Hi Troubled, I just want to give a short comment about my religion views. If you know my countries history you will realize how hard it is for us to struggle to get back our national and cultural identity. The teaching of our elders are still strong regarding religion and that is very difficult to change. It might take five-ten generation to make us realize how it affect our life.

I have nothing against Catholic-Christian religion as I have been also raised up smelling candle wax of our small modest home religious sanctuary at times I would find myself remembering all those moments I spent praying with my family. A religion is manipulating it has a power to shape every individual to believe in everything it preach, I should not ignore that it does good thing but it also do us harm. (if any of my family would read this I will be sent to the wailing walls for the rest of my life). My mother became a Christ believer while my Grandma still hold her faith to Catholic Roman church and my Dad is an atheist (and thanks to him for giving me a more understanding view about religion). They hold grunt to each other because of this religious choice of my mother. Now, you see in every Filipino family there is a strong need to believe in a religion. As of me, I believe in doing good thing to others, I do believe that there is something intangible force out there that is beyond of mortal understandings.
I do agree with you in not forcing your beliefs to your children and let them choose when the right time comes. But I will guide my children and make them know that there are things out there that is waiting to be known.

I thought it would be a short comment but there I go again it ended into more lines:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

hilda_danao
25th July 2007, 14:16
That's a very sensitive topic to us filipinos. i choose not to say anything.

IainBusby
25th July 2007, 18:59
[quote=troubled;23647]No ones talkig about religion so I may as well derail the topic further by asking:

Hi Troubled, I just want to give a short comment about my religion views. If you know my countries history you will realize how hard it is for us to struggle to get back our national and cultural identity. The teaching of our elders are still strong regarding religion and that is very difficult to change. It might take five-ten generation to make us realize how it affect our life.

I have nothing against Catholic-Christian religion as I have been also raised up smelling candle wax of our small modest home religious sanctuary at times I would find myself remembering all those moments I spent praying with my family. A religion is manipulating it has a power to shape every individual to believe in everything it preach, I should not ignore that it does good thing but it also do us harm. (if any of my family would read this I will be sent to the wailing walls for the rest of my life). My mother became a Christ believer while my Grandma still hold her faith to Catholic Roman church and my Dad is an atheist (and thanks to him for giving me a more understanding view about religion). They hold grunt to each other because of this religious choice of my mother. Now, you see in every Filipino family there is a strong need to believe in a religion. As of me, I believe in doing good thing to others, I do believe that there is something intangible force out there that is beyond of mortal understandings.
I do agree with you in not forcing your beliefs to your children and let them choose when the right time comes. But I will guide my children and make them know that there are things out there that is waiting to be known.

I thought it would be a short comment but there I go again it ended into more lines:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

I just copied and pasted this from a posting I made back in June 2006. Reading Peanutz posting just reminded me of it as they both seem to say something about the finely balanced approach required in the upbringing of children which will eventually enable them to make a judgement about what is right for them as they grow and develop into adults.


My Mother was a very religious woman and a very regular churchgoer, but my father on the other hand, was an absolute confirmed agnostic. During my upbringing, which included regular church attendance, I found myself more attracted to my fathers point of view. This was because he explained how he had listened subjectively to the arguments on both sides and had concluded that, although he thought that the bible was absolutely full of very inspiring stories, he had concluded that they were, just that, "stories". But from those stories he had gleaned enough of what made sense to him, to give him some sort of inspiration and something to hold on to throughout his life. As I said, he thought the bible was just a collection of stories written by men, but from them he eventually concluded that whatever your beliefs, you should strive to be Christian in your behaviour toward others (in as much as we can learn from the bible, how Christians are supposed to behave towards others) throughout your life, whether you believe the Bible stories or not. My Mother had the certainty of her faith to see her through, but my Father was, I believe, quite rare in his beliefs, but I don't think either of them died with any regrets. You pays your money and you makes your choice as they say.

Iain.