Proof that Windows Vista = Dogs dinner

[walesrob]

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/229509/the-week-in-your-words-microsoft-cant-close-windows.html

Its obvious M$ have realised that XP is still king, and Vista is doing as well as it should be.

Also, in other news, the new Windows 7 will see a revision of the deeply unpopular User Access Control (UAC) in Vista.

[aromulus]

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/229509/the-week-in-your-words-microsoft-cant-close-windows.html

Its obvious M$ have realised that XP is still king, and Vista is doing as well as it should be.

Also, in other news, the new Windows 7 will see a revision of the deeply unpopular User Access Control (UAC) in Vista.

I clicked on the link..... But it ain't happenin'.....:Erm:

[KeithD]

We've already talked about this in another thread!! :Erm:

Vista has only made a few $Billion profit......failure! :NoNo:

[andypaul]

Vista has done ok as Mr admin says for a minority os. Think it may well stay that way.
Although the take up is as big as apple macs percentage i belive.

Many Firms would have been on update cycle about now, but many are just patching up or extending leases from the feedback i get from I.T departments.

For many firms all that matters is the browser used for web applications or widgets on existing desktops, o/s in their current forms are not that important and way to costly.
Same with many more pc savvy users who unless Vista fulls into their laps somehow will not spend out the money unless they have to.

Little firms and home users will use o/s and probably whichever one comes on their pc. With many buying the mini web pc's with either xp or linux os this will keep the figure lower.

[IainBusby]

What really annoys me is that it's almost impossible to buy a new pc or notebook which isn't supplied with vista and that most of the OEM's refuse to post XP drivers for anyone who would like to upgrade..... oops, I meant downgrade to XP.
Iain.

[andypaul]

What really annoys me is that it's almost impossible to buy a new pc or notebook which isn't supplied with vista and that most of the OEM's refuse to post XP drivers for anyone who would like to upgrade..... oops, I meant downgrade to XP.
Iain.

Yet they still supply business machines with Xp often without even asking.
The last company i came across with Vista last week was getting their techs to drop back down the trial machines. To many costs in tech support and no cost advatanges as i mentioned earlier. Then users report the massive improvement in the upgraded software:icon_lol:

Also many firms like oursleves although we provide support if asked honestly say drop it down. As one issue a company had involved the manufactuer of the pc, many of the key devices on the pc manufactuers, Huge software companies and all of them pinned it on Microsoft (Vista 64) and Microsoft just said its looking in to the matter. normally they try to pin the blame elsewhere.

How long has it been out and still major issues, last year it had only 1 percent of the business market. The number in the personal conusumer market is higher but then you have no choice in many cases:rolleyes:

I am sure i have seen companies actually charge you extra to downgrade to XP and thats once the Vista os cost is taken off:Erm:

[walesrob]

What really annoys me is that it's almost impossible to buy a new pc or notebook which isn't supplied with vista and that most of the OEM's refuse to post XP drivers for anyone who would like to upgrade..... oops, I meant downgrade to XP.
Iain.

I've just bought a new "Netbook", Advent 4211 and it has XP. Well worth the £279 and has won loads of Recommended awards from various PC mags.

http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Advent_4211_1.jpg

[andypaul]

A good Purchase Sir

[KeithD]

I think that laptop would melt with the multi-tasking I'd be wanting it to do :cwm24:

The problem has never been with Vista as an OS, the problem was the pre-launch advertising, they messed up big, and have admitted as such. Now no matter how hard people try they can't get much info on Window 7, and sites showing screenshots are being targetted by MS lawyers.

[andypaul]

I think that laptop would melt with the multi-tasking I'd be wanting it to do :cwm24:

The problem has never been with Vista as an OS, the problem was the pre-launch advertising, they messed up big, and have admitted as such. Now no matter how hard people try they can't get much info on Window 7, and sites showing screenshots are being targetted by MS lawyers.

Horses for courses guv.

Just think most of the world not intrested in a new OS, not sure everyones reasons why. But no major effort been made to fine tune Vista and the applications.
So problems which should have been ironed out are still there (mainly with applications and drivers). Catch 22 People hear it has problems with apps and drivers no real major effort to reslove issues and around it goes.

People felt they needed XP to work i guess and stuck with it.

[KeithD]

I've never had a problem with any drivers or apps on Vista, and with over 5 Million files, and 100's of programs running that's good going.

Even when it was knew and some folk complained about certain programs, I never had a problem with them, you just change the Compatability mode.

I still run a Windows 95 program that doesn't work as is, change the mode to 95, and it's fine. The problem is, the vast majority of folk don't read the instructions or bother to learn anything, they want every single thing to work out of the box, and with 10'000's of different spec PC's that is impossible.

It's the usual blame something else for people's own lazyness.....a common problem in todays society.

[andypaul]

I hope your not using Vista to run FUK on as it just dissapeared for a few mins when i went to post my reply:D

The jist of which was

I agree you can "BC" apps and drivers i know many people use Printers with this. But When you have a project mnager who after the trial says well we have to make this BC and that oh and that. The director who has to sign of the purchase of the Volume license purchase is like umm why:Erm:

If it works now why tinker and increase costs will be the response. Its now almost cheaper to upgrade the workstation than the OS in many cases. It will provide a greater increase in efficency and no major changes.

Costs as you know include the purchase, the roll out, needs to be created and training of all Helpdesk staff level 1 and 2. Then the increased tickets will effect efficent and response times for the department.
Some Pcs possibly may need upgrading the project team then have to test every application and major driver which again takes time.

Doing the same on Xp and upgrading the machines. Costs will be ask customer to ensure all files in my docs on friday afternoon, copy over settings and docs at the weekend wallop land on desk. Switch on and test. Worker notices a new case possibly if they can even see it, make sure they know where on off button is. Job done.

All that cost and what performance increase or work efficency will be gained from Vista?
From experiences of Companies in many fields. There will be none in fact a decrease is more likely due to users having to get used to (remeber many dont care how it works or why, wrong attitude to a tool of your trade but thats how it is) and if the equipment is lower spec will have a drop in performance for like to like work processes.

I have allso been involved in trials and roll outs where identical spec machines with the same bulid Vista OS and applications (created from a shared ghost so every machine has the exactly same data on it) one or two random machines will have bizzare issues with Vista. Work fine with XP and linux os's but not with Vista. No one can find anything wrong with the PC's parts swapped from working devices Bios reflashed the works.

Companies dont wanna hear that its a waste of time and the faults are sometimes subtle and only once the customer has started to use the machine do they become a issue. Companies are highly agaisnt taking risks of any kind at the moment as you know. If a roll out went badly wrong it could kill of the company.
One organsation in particular had a weird fault which was affecting a major project and they used there clout to get all the manufactuers to look in to why random devices played up. Everyone pointed the finger at vista and MS never came back and pointed at others which was very strange.
All these PCs were rolled back to Xp and the organsation had no problems.

I agree Vista is not a bad product but i jst dont see the point. if its on a PC I was given now I would not worry about rolling back straight off but i would not go and load it on as i Know i would get no improvment in efficency or gains in speed, more likely the opposite if anything.

Like i say Browsers and widgets are where it is for many comapnies and Microsoft i feel should be making some different variations in IE. Lite versions for intranets, speedy low in extra version and then a heavyweight do all version say. But theres is no money In IE since they started giving it away to try and kill off Netscape.

I do agree if you have it at home most issues can be solved easily enough or worked around. But i hope microsoft have some killer features and like they keep saying is faster to start up with Vienna otherwise the same thing will happen.

Companies will simply not bother and if they dont many home users will not bother as they will wonder why and never try it for themselves etc.

[IainBusby]

I hope your not using Vista to run FUK on as it just dissapeared for a few mins when i went to post my reply:D

The jist of which was

I agree you can "BC" apps and drivers i know many people use Printers with this. But When you have a project mnager who after the trial says well we have to make this BC and that oh and that. The director who has to sign of the purchase of the Volume license purchase is like umm why:Erm:

If it works now why tinker and increase costs will be the response. Its now almost cheaper to upgrade the workstation than the OS in many cases. It will provide a greater increase in efficency and no major changes.

Costs as you know include the purchase, the roll out, needs to be created and training of all Helpdesk staff level 1 and 2. Then the increased tickets will effect efficent and response times for the department.
Some Pcs possibly may need upgrading the project team then have to test every application and major driver which again takes time.

Doing the same on Xp and upgrading the machines. Costs will be ask customer to ensure all files in my docs on friday afternoon, copy over settings and docs at the weekend wallop land on desk. Switch on and test. Worker notices a new case possibly if they can even see it, make sure they know where on off button is. Job done.

All that cost and what performance increase or work efficency will be gained from Vista?
From experiences of Companies in many fields. There will be none in fact a decrease is more likely due to users having to get used to (remeber many dont care how it works or why, wrong attitude to a tool of your trade but thats how it is) and if the equipment is lower spec will have a drop in performance for like to like work processes.

I have allso been involved in trials and roll outs where identical spec machines with the same bulid Vista OS and applications (created from a shared ghost so every machine has the exactly same data on it) one or two random machines will have bizzare issues with Vista. Work fine with XP and linux os's but not with Vista. No one can find anything wrong with the PC's parts swapped from working devices Bios reflashed the works.

Companies dont wanna hear that its a waste of time and the faults are sometimes subtle and only once the customer has started to use the machine do they become a issue. Companies are highly agaisnt taking risks of any kind at the moment as you know. If a roll out went badly wrong it could kill of the company.
One organsation in particular had a weird fault which was affecting a major project and they used there clout to get all the manufactuers to look in to why random devices played up. Everyone pointed the finger at vista and MS never came back and pointed at others which was very strange.
All these PCs were rolled back to Xp and the organsation had no problems.

I agree Vista is not a bad product but i jst dont see the point. if its on a PC I was given now I would not worry about rolling back straight off but i would not go and load it on as i Know i would get no improvment in efficency or gains in speed, more likely the opposite if anything.

Like i say Browsers and widgets are where it is for many comapnies and Microsoft i feel should be making some different variations in IE. Lite versions for intranets, speedy low in extra version and then a heavyweight do all version say. But theres is no money In IE since they started giving it away to try and kill off Netscape.

I do agree if you have it at home most issues can be solved easily enough or worked around. But i hope microsoft have some killer features and like they keep saying is faster to start up with Vienna otherwise the same thing will happen.

Companies will simply not bother and if they dont many home users will not bother as they will wonder why and never try it for themselves etc.

I've done the similar tests but mainly to compare performance and Vista is definately slower than XP with everything set up exactly the same and running the same apps on the same machine.
Iain.

[KeithD]

I've done the similar tests but mainly to compare performance and Vista is definately slower than XP with everything set up exactly the same and running the same apps on the same machine.
Iain.
With the indexing off, 2GB's ram, advanced disk management off, and all the services corresponding exactly, etc?

[IainBusby]

With the indexing off, 2GB's ram, advanced disk management off, and all the services corresponding exactly, etc?

Mostly, there are some inherent services in vista that don't exist in XP, but when I check in task manager it seems that they don't use up enough memory to make the difference. I think it's just the way the have re-ritten most of the inbuilt apps and interfaces that tends to bloat the whole OS in general.
Iain.

[baboyako]

i prefer windows 2000. but had to upgrade cuz the webcam driver didn't run on it :(

when are they going to finish writing linux? it's still beta software..

[aromulus]

I give up.............:doh

:ARsurrender:

[walesrob]

2GB's ram,

And there lies the whole problem with Vista, it needs stupid amounts of RAM to run smoothly. You may remember I had an Acer laptop with Vista Basic, but only came with 512mb. Of course it spluttered, paused and even had some BSOD's (yeah I know its the fault of the manufacturer) Only by adding an extra 1.5Gb of RAM does it start to run to a degree where multi-tasking is possible. Having got this Advent Netbook with XP and 1024mb of RAM (it has a N270 Intel Atom processor), it seems very fast, and I can multitask quite easily. Bootup time is incredible - I made it about 18 seconds, never seen that before in XP.

Andypaul makes a valid comment regarding corporations not yet migrating over to Vista due to cost and technical restrictions, but also spare a thought for people in developing countries, Philippines for example - an XP machine is probably quite expensive, but if M$ force everyone onto Vista, the cost would be prohibitive for many, and I can only see more pirated copies of XP floating around or a bigger uptake of Linux distro's, such as Ubuntu. In fact, some manufacturers of these Netbooks use Ubuntu as the OS, and while I can't find any sales figures, there are more Linux laptops on sale now than ever before - even the local Currys store has 3 Linux laptops on sale.

As a footnote, if you had been following the dev. blog for Windows 7, you'll see that M$ have vowed to make the OS more lighter, with less bloat. Seems M$ have learnt a lesson. Less is more, so to speak.

[jimeve]

M$ thats cool,

[jimeve]

thinking of buying wife a lappie for xmas the for mentioned seems good for the
pries but she needs a bigger HD, 160 or more. loads of pics & vids. :Help1:

[andypaul]

MS wont force people on to Vista, asian and other developing markets i belive they still sell XP and will for the forseeable future. MS was just mothballing xp when the biggest threat it has seen for years arrived the Mini Web Laptop/pc oh look suddenly they made it possible for Asus to load on XP.

The lightweight webbook which start with the EEEpc started a market which is huge.

Loads of people need a PC for now and then use.

Montior what the avg person does with there pc and its IM, email, and browse the web. maybe perform some lightweight office tasks. Even sorting photos and editing a video you shot and putting on to a dvd doesn't take much power your old xp lap/desktop will suffice.

I dont need a pc to launch a rocket and neither do many people.

I think ASUS and all the other now see the market is maturing many "experts" will bulid there own or at least mod their own.

The big growth market is now for those that just want it to work. dont want work arounds dont want to beta test or lose time and work due to a PC.

The little EEE pcs we have sent out in phill just work and are a lot less hassle than the MS products out there for me to remotely make sure keep working even with the instruction to ghost an image back on when to many screensavers loaded on:Brick:.
For some family members i have them using Symbian phones with BT keyboards and a cable to a everyday tv screen as they crash far less for basic tasks than MS products:NoNo:

Rob the figures you dont need just bear in mind dell, apple and all the others are releasing versions. The cost of them has come down when inflation is rampant and of course Currys stock them.

They are selling and its because its what the customer wants and needs.

[KeithD]

And there lies the whole problem with Vista, it needs stupid amounts of RAM to run smoothly.
2GB's is generally the standard, unless you are paying for a 'toy' :D .....Vista makes it clear what is required, so if you don't have it, don;t upgrade......you can't put the new Mac OS on old systems, and the new versions of Linux OS won't now work on some old servers...that's progression. :xxgrinning--00xx3:

[andypaul]

Heres what About.com put as the benefits of Vista over xp

http://windows.about.com/od/updatingupgrading/p/windows_vista.htm

Now those in the Vista pro camp please write me a few lines why a company will risk both its IT structure, costs, and lose person hours. To have

Sophisticated graphics aero whoop
Better search and organization tools nothing special
Improved security uac will save the world
Easier access to information and applications really hard to start apps in xp cheers
New multimedia functions and tools they have redesigned media player lets buy it now!!!
Improved system tools for backups, updates, and more back up is well covered by most I.T departments anyway.

Sounds great but doesn't do it for many Directors having natty graphics or better multimedia tools on office and field based staff pcs.

Memory is not the problem its only about 30 quid extra with dell to ensure its 2gb if its not already.

Im sure if i had my laptop from work sent to me with Vista i would not even notice (ie it works its not bad would do the job)

But its like Vanila =Vista whats the point. A bit like the liberals they are there but i wouldn't miss them if they were not.

[KeithD]

I could never get Windows 95 to work on my Windows 3.1 laptop :NoNo: ....It had 32MB's of memory for God's sake :rolleyes:

[andypaul]

I could never get Windows 95 to work on my Windows 3.1 laptop :NoNo: ....It had 32MB's of memory for God's sake :rolleyes:

Those were the days

I can remeber when i got a pentium pc was ordered at 80 or was it 75 but i got 90 and then i clocked it to 100:omg:

I had no idea what i was going to do with the 1 gb hdd as it was soooo big and then upgrading it to windows 98 by floppy disk:NoNo:

[aromulus]

Now guys... :rolleyes:

If you desist in using this kind of foreign language I am going to ban the lot of yah....:D

[andypaul]

Now guys... :rolleyes:

If you desist in using this kind of foreign language I am going to ban the lot of yah....:D

We have no idea what we are talking about we just make it up as we go along. A bit like the MPs and our beloved Goverment do:D

[walesrob]

Now guys... :rolleyes:

If you desist in using this kind of foreign language I am going to ban the lot of yah....:D


I think Dom has a bottleneck somewhere in his CPU threading :Rasp:

[aromulus]

We have no idea what we are talking about we just make it up as we go along. A bit like the MPs and our beloved Goverment do:D


I think Dom has a bottleneck somewhere in his CPU threading :Rasp:


:cwm23:

That's it..............:doh

You are barred............:NoNo:

You ain't having another pint in me pub again...:furious3:

Sorry guys..........
I have been doing some quality control on my wares and I can sincerely state that there is absolutely nought wrong with them.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:

:furious3: heck.... That south african stuff is rather nice.....:xxgrinning--00xx3:

Yes ossifer....????:doh

[andypaul]

I think Dom has a bottleneck somewhere in his CPU threading :Rasp:

you would think Dom knew how to avoid Bottlenecks in his line of work.

[KeithD]

I've still got the floppies for Windows 3.1 wonder if I can get it working? :cwm24:

[andypaul]

I've still got the floppies for Windows 3.1 wonder if I can get it working? :cwm24:

If you got floppies you need a little blue pill:D